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Author Topic: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread  (Read 991989 times)

Rowanas

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8655 on: September 14, 2018, 09:24:39 am »

Feta doesn't really... Melt, though. It toasts, and it can soften, but it's not really a good cheese for melting. The crumbly, firm texture is part of the appeal.

Yes, very well, softens.  Still, it does not undergo a breaking of the bonds which arises from the application of heat, and which I find desirable in feta.
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Reelya

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8656 on: September 14, 2018, 09:47:36 am »

Boba Fett-a

Okay, that was terrible, but couldn't resist. lol....

That reminded me, there are a lot of things that are never named in Star Wars movies yet every kid seems to have known what they were straight away, due to the incessant toy marketing. Boba Fett is one. He's never named in Empire, yet every kid knew his name. The first time he's mentioned by name is just before he dies, in ROTJ: Chewie roars then Han says "Boba Fett?  Boba Fett? where?" and knocks him into the death pit. That line ... it's like an in joke that already assumes you know what that guy is called, yet the only way you could know what he's called is through the supplemental marketing or if someone explains it to you. That's how much Star Wars is/was tied up with marketing - too much - if actual dialogue doesn't make a lot of sense unless you already know the external marketing material.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 09:51:20 am by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8657 on: September 14, 2018, 09:57:42 am »

I think you're reading too much into my joke, I was riffing off of scrivers 'fett' and kagus's 'fet'a' and it was just an idea that popped into my head that I thought was funny.

Boba Fett is supposed to be one of those guys whose infamy/fame preceeds them.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8658 on: September 14, 2018, 11:49:49 am »

In a rush, but I'll just say that I think you're looking at the whole "money spent on lobbying" thing the wrong way around. They spend that much because the EU is considerably harder to lobby than the UK government to get the results. Convincing 27 countries to agree to a thing is a lot harder than convincing a handful of Ministers and their Chief Whip.
No, they spend that much because it scales to the benefit of their investment. Lobbyists in the UK can affect British policy, lobbyists in the EU will decide what rules Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the UK will obey. Whether you intend it or not, you are deliberately spreading disinformation by pretending the presence of a multibillion year EU lobbying industry is evidence that it is struggling to gain results.

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To stroll around the vast, ugly and permanent building site that is Brussels' European district is to brush up against the power of the lobbies. Every office block, every glass and steel construction within a kilometre of the European commission, council and parliament is peopled by Europe's biggest corporate names.
Thousands of companies, banks, law firms, PR consultancies and trade associations are there to bend ears and influence the regulations and laws that shape Europe's single market, fix trade deals, and govern economic and commercial behaviour in a union of 507 million.
Lobbying is a billion-euro industry in Brussels. According to Corporate Europe Observatory, a watchdog campaigning for greater transparency, there are at least 30,000 lobbyists in Brussels, nearly matching the 31,000 staff employed by the European commission and making it second only to Washington in the concentration of those seeking to affect legislation. Lobbyists sign a transparency register run by the parliament and the commission, though it is not mandatory.
By some estimates, they influence 75% of legislation. In principle, lobbyists give politicians information and arguments during the decision-making process. In practice, the corridors of the parliament often teem with individuals, who meet MEPs in their offices or in open spaces such as the "Mickey Mouse bar" (nicknamed so because of the shape of its seats) inside the parliament.
They explain their concerns, provide a "position paper", and send in suggestions for amendments to legislative proposals. Of course, the final decision is taken by MEPs. But examples are legion of the tail wagging the dog.
The most effective lobbying in Brussels centres on the gamekeepers-turned-poachers, the revolving door of senior commission officials, diplomats, and MEPs who retire or quit public office and instantly take up offers to translate their contacts and inside knowledge into lucrative lobbying work, often by moving to an office across the street.
Take Jean de Ruyt, a Belgian who knows Brussels inside out. As ambassador to the EU, the career diplomat in effect ran Belgium's EU presidency four years ago, then retired, took up a job with a US law firm and is now a leading figure in the shale lobby.
His No 2 as ambassador is now chief of staff to Herman Van Rompuy, the president of the European council steering EU summits.
As a point of correction, the Guardian article was written in 2014, there is no longer 30,000 lobbyists, there are now over 80,000 lobbyists working to influence EU policy and regulation in 2018.
More money, less transparency, more influence and less responsibility. But perhaps we should defer to the United States, given how much their corporations spend on lobbying their government, they too must be a bastion of transparent democracy

You say our leaders can't change, and we should "advance in technology and culture". But technology benefits immensely from EU membership, hence why so many of the businesses and business leaders and researchers and academics are pro-remain. We stand a better chance of advancing in terms of science and technology as a part of the EU than outside of it.
It's an old lobbying trick to manufacture consensus:

Quote
3. Engineer a following
It doesn't help if a corporation is the only one making the case to government. That looks like special pleading. What is needed is a critical mass of voices singing to its tune. This can be engineered.
The forte of lobbying firm Westbourne is in mobilising voices behind its clients. Thirty economists, for example, signed a letter to the FT in 2011 in support of HS2; 100 businesses endorsed another published in the Daily Telegraph.
Westbourne was also hired in 2011 to lobby against the top rate of tax, although who was behind its "50p tax campaign" remains a mystery. Ahead of the chancellor's annual Budget announcement in early 2012, letters appeared in the press demanding he scrap it. The FT's was signed by 20 economists. The Telegraph's by the bosses of 573 SMEs, described as the "bedrock" of British industry. A quick glance, though, revealed it included five managers from the Switzerland-based banking giant Credit Suisse. The paper's commentary noted the alarm this new call from "ordinary British business" would cause inside government.
Hence why there's been years of articles going on about how Leave voters are really a small minority who never wanted brexit anyways, therefore we should implement further integration to the EU in order to appease them. Subsequently we should trust in a list of businessmen and researchers who are paid by the European Union in order to gain an appraisal of the European Union's merits, faster than you could say 'conflict of interest.' But alas - we should be wasting billions on building up EU pension schemes for its bureaucrats, or else the birthplace of the industrial revolution and modern finance will be incapable of innovating...

As for culture, meh. Culture changes, culture grows, culture adapts, culture isn't a "thing" you can point at and preserve or fix. It is a fluid mess, and obsessing about preserving it (for example) is a fools errand as far as I'm concerned. Our culture is not our parents is not our grandparents is not our great-grandparents will not be our childrens will not be our grandchildrens, it's not worth the time to "improve" or "preserve" as a thing in and of itself, it's something that just happens. Social issues are what need focusing on, culture will follow suit and adapts and change as it always has and always will.
You cannot accept the mutability of culture without accepting its capacity to decline; once you have severed the continuity between the past and present, that link is irreparable. The United Kingdom stands at this schizophrenic crossroads wherein it spends so much time and capital seeking to revive Celtic languages or promote cultures from across the Commonwealth within the British Isles - but then turns around and says that actually, it is best to just let heritage and culture die. Because culture is not something you cultivate or preserve, for as long as you ignore all of our past and present efforts to do just that, or ignore the entire profession of the teacher or the artist or the content creator - and ultimately, of the parent, the grandparent and the great-grandparent.

Personally I don't think the EU is progressing to becoming a full state ala the USA. I consider that a shame, personally, since I'm actually in favour of humanity progressing towards a one-world government, but that's just me. And I think a United State of Europe (to quote Churchill) could be a positive step forward towards that. There are factions inside the EU that want to take it that way, sure. But there are factions that want Wales to become independent from the UK. Doesn't make it particularly likely anytime soon :)
Give it time, I am personally of the belief that we will progress towards a universal government one way or another once holding an independent foreign policy becomes too expensive all (or all but one) of the world's states to maintain. Once that is the case, the distinction between one national government and another will become increasingly irrelevant, as both governments will be incapable of maintaining divergent international interests - all other integration will have already occurred, or will follow suit organically.

MorleyDev

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8659 on: September 14, 2018, 11:59:00 am »

My point is the presence of lobbyists is irrelevant as to whether or not it actually works in having a significant influence on EU laws. Indeed, there are plenty of EU laws that pass despite extensive lobbying against them by industries (GMO and Tobacco laws, for example).

Additionally, all your arguing against then is centralisation. But they'll just change tact if you get rid of that, and you'd get a lot of smaller investments spread around instead of one big one which is even harder to deal with.

You do realise your argument against the argument that researches are general pro-EU is literally:
"We need to leave the EU and invest more in research and technology"
"The people who are most involved in academic research and technological development that say this is a bad idea and will slow down research and technological development."
"All those people are shills for the EU!"

This is exactly what is being talked about when people talk about the culture around Brexit being one of ignoring people with the relevant expertise and knowledge because "they've had enough of experts".

If you don't trust the academics and researches when they say it's a bad idea and instead invoke what basically boils down to a conspiracy theory that "all lecturers are subtle EU shills", you are removing yourself from the capacity for rational, information-driven and evidence-driven debate.

Preserving historical heritage and fighting to preserve the idea of a culture are two different things. Fighting against the tide to preserve culture just warps that culture into a bastardisation of itself.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 12:13:23 pm by MorleyDev »
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scriver

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8660 on: September 14, 2018, 12:03:53 pm »

My point is the presence of lobbyists is irrelevant as to whether or not it actually works in having a significant influence on EU laws. Indeed, there are plenty of EU laws that pass despite extensive lobbying against them by industries (GMO and Tobacco laws, for example).

And Copyright laws - oh wait
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MorleyDev

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8661 on: September 14, 2018, 12:06:00 pm »

Lawmakers all over the world, EU, USA, and UK have all been struggling with "copyright" since the invention of the printing press. That isn't going to change just because it gets decentralised.

The internet and the digital age in which information can be copied and distributed en-masse at basically zero cost certainly hasn't helped. Copyright law has been a broken thing for awhile now, but that break goes all the way back to trying to apply laws and concepts that originated in dealing with physical books to digital goods.

And it also doesn't help that most lawmakers are older and don't quite get this "internet" thing. "It's a series of tubes" and all that.

All those things mean that for so long as the idea of copyright exists at all, copyright is always going to be a bit of a sore-topic in any capitalistic system.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 12:16:33 pm by MorleyDev »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8662 on: September 14, 2018, 12:16:17 pm »

My point is the presence of lobbyists is irrelevant as to whether or not it actually works in having a significant influence on EU laws. Indeed, there are plenty of EU laws that pass despite extensive lobbying against them by industries (GMO and Tobacco laws, for example).
The law does not need to be rejected for lobbyists to successfully alter or influence the policy in a manner which neuters the regulation, nor does the 25% estimated unaffected in any manner diminish the 75%.

You do realise your argument against the argument that researches are general pro-EU is literally:
"We need to invest more in research and technology"
"The people who are most involved in academic research and technological development that say this is a bad idea."
"All those people are shills for the EU!"
This is exactly what is being talked about when people talk about the culture around Brexit being one of ignoring people with the relevant expertise and knowledge because "they've had enough of experts".
If you don't trust the academics and researches when they say it's a bad idea and instead invoke what basically boils down to a conspiracy theory that "all lecturers are subtle EU shills", you are removing yourself from the capacity for rational, information-driven and evidence-driven debate.
On the one hand you claim expertise without any evidence, you claim rationality and information-driven debate despite posting no sources or information - and then you turn around and say that you can assert against all evidence to the contrary, that vast sums of cash spent on lobbying or senior EU politicians being elected from lobbyists or transferring into lobbying firms, is evidence that the EU is unaffected by lobbying. That 80,000 lobbyists and growing - should be interpreted as the EU standing firm against corporate lobbying. I wish literally was still used to mean 'literally.'

MorleyDev

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8663 on: September 14, 2018, 12:20:29 pm »

My point was that your interpreting "there are a lot of lobbyists so they must be successful" was a false conclusion, that they invest in the EU because it's a big target but that it's size can also be a defence since it isn't one country or government that needs convincing, but many. The cause does not necessarily follow effect in the manner you suggest, and that the presence of lobbyists does not directly mean that they are having so extreme an impact on laws.

Yes, the transparency is something all infrastructures need to be constantly trying to improve. The EU isn't as great as it could be there, but the saying about babies and bathwaters comes to mind.

The Guardian article just says "By some estimates, they influence 75% of legislation.". A citation would also be useful there, and what do the other estimates say? What is the range of the estimates?

Do you want me to post the polls showing education and age breakdowns of Remain vs Leave voters? The many many economists and lecturers posting open letters in support of remain? I can do that, but I thought they were common knowledge at this point:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-an-open-letter-to-uk-voters-from-leaders-of-96-british-universities-a7092511.html
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/european-union-referendum-nine-out-of-ten-university-staff-back-remain
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/
https://economistsforremain.org/
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brains-for-remain-full-letter-bp8z30t5d
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 12:34:15 pm by MorleyDev »
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scriver

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8664 on: September 14, 2018, 12:27:24 pm »

I just love it when the class hate comes out. At this rate we'll be back at "only rich people should get to vote" again within 50 years.
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MorleyDev

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8665 on: September 14, 2018, 12:29:48 pm »

Yes, because mentioning that university staff and those who achieve higher education are much more likely support remain is definitely class warfare.

I'm not saying that those people should be the only ones to vote, it's saying that dismissing the people who are the experts is an incredibly dangerous position to hold. To roughly quote Brian Cox, that's the way back into the cave.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 12:37:02 pm by MorleyDev »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8666 on: September 14, 2018, 12:36:22 pm »

My point was that your interpreting "there are a lot of lobbyists so they must be successful" was a false conclusion, that cause does not necessarily follow effect in that manner, and that the presence of lobbyists does not directly mean that they are having so extreme an impact on laws.
Quote
By some estimates, they influence 75% of legislation. In principle, lobbyists give politicians information and arguments during the decision-making process. In practice, the corridors of the parliament often teem with individuals, who meet MEPs in their offices or in open spaces such as the "Mickey Mouse bar" (nicknamed so because of the shape of its seats) inside the parliament.
They explain their concerns, provide a "position paper", and send in suggestions for amendments to legislative proposals. Of course, the final decision is taken by MEPs. But examples are legion of the tail wagging the dog.
The most effective lobbying in Brussels centres on the gamekeepers-turned-poachers, the revolving door of senior commission officials, diplomats, and MEPs who retire or quit public office and instantly take up offers to translate their contacts and inside knowledge into lucrative lobbying work, often by moving to an office across the street.
Take Jean de Ruyt, a Belgian who knows Brussels inside out. As ambassador to the EU, the career diplomat in effect ran Belgium's EU presidency four years ago, then retired, took up a job with a US law firm and is now a leading figure in the shale lobby.
His No 2 as ambassador is now chief of staff to Herman Van Rompuy, the president of the European council steering EU summits.
"false conclusion."

Do you want me to post the polls showing education and age breakdowns of Remain vs Leave voters? I can do that, but I thought it was common knowledge at this point:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/european-union-referendum-nine-out-of-ten-university-staff-back-remain
For what point? Saying everyone who disagrees with you is uneducated & ignorant of common knowledge hasn't changed the weakness of your argument. It's just nasty. That a successful lobbying industry, rapidly growing into the second largest such in the world, is indication of its failure - and that we should ignore the structural weaknesses in transparency or internal regulation, all because a successful lobbying industry cannot be concluded to be a successful lobbying industry, is bizarre.

For example, you brought up tobacco, which spends millions annually, out of the far larger corporate alliances which make that number billions. And how much influence do they purchase?

Quote
On 7 December 2016, three months after the Brussels meeting, O’Reilly characterizes the Commission’s and its officials’ weak compliance with the FCTC-treaty’s requirements as ‘maladministration’ (read more). Even then, her judgement does not seem to make an impression. The EU tax officials leave their doors wide open, for example for PA International. This lobby foundation has renowned former politicians on its board, like Frits Bolkestein (former EU-commissioner) and Andries van Agt (former Dutch prime minister). On 12 December 2016, PA-lobbyists visit TAXUD to promote – on behalf of a cigar manufacturer – a special duty on cigarillos (read more).Probably the most interesting document is a report of a meeting on 17 January 2017 (read more) during which British American Tobacco and Imperial Brands gave a presentation on the impact of raising excites taxes on their products. TAXUD officials had invited them to come over and ‘share new information concerning raw tobacco and e-cigarettes such as data and experiences with national taxation of new products’, and ‘to present their view on a possible harmonized taxation of e-cigarettes.’ To do so, the tobacco companies put together a shiny Powerpoint presentation.
Initially, it is unclear who attended the meeting, but after an appeal by Tobacco Investigations Desk TAXUD releases the list. Apart from tobacco lobbyists and EU officials (from TAXUD and the EU health department SANTE), it contains 38 officials from various member states (read more).
The meeting not just constitutes a violation of FCTC in itself. The treaty also requires that reports of all meetings of EU-officials with the tobacco industry be made public. TAXUD did not do this until after our FOIA request.
Delaying tactics
On 12 January 2018 the European Commission decided to leave the tobacco tax directive as it is (read more).
Has the industry lobby failed? On the contrary, says Luk Joossens, a well-known Belgian expert on tobacco lobby tactics, this is exactly what the industry wanted: ‘postponement is always good for them because it means they can also postpone any sales price increases. Plus, a delay can become indefinite.’ On page 12 of its strategy document Philip Morris says that preferably, countries should determine their own duty policies – in other words: without EU-interference. The company also employs the strategic adage: ‘roadblocks are as important as solutions’ (read more) – meaning: if we cannot stop anti-smoking measures, we can at least try to stall them.
They get open door access with former commissioners and PMs working for them.

I just love it when the class hate comes out. At this rate we'll be back at "only rich people should get to vote" again within 50 years.
The current attitude is that the old and the uneducated should be disenfranchised, unless they change their mind and vote Remain. Then they become people again

MorleyDev

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8667 on: September 14, 2018, 12:37:19 pm »

I repeat:
Yes, because mentioning that university staff and those who achieve higher education are much more likely support remain is definitely class warfare.

I'm not saying that those people should be the only ones to vote, it's saying that dismissing the people who are the experts is an incredibly dangerous position to hold. To roughly quote Brian Cox, that's the way back into the cave.

Loud Whispers did dismiss all of those academics and researchers as being EU shills, asserting that there very existence is "an old lobbying trick to manufacture consensus", and I heavily dispute that attitude. I call it what I think it is: Dangerous and destructive, and if it enters the fabric of our society then it I think that attitude will destroy and cripple the foundations upon which that research and technology he said we should invest in is based upon.

I kept editing it to add more links for lecturers and professors writing open letters in favour of remain:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-an-open-letter-to-uk-voters-from-leaders-of-96-british-universities-a7092511.html
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/european-union-referendum-nine-out-of-ten-university-staff-back-remain
https://economistsforremain.org/
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brains-for-remain-full-letter-bp8z30t5d
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 12:42:08 pm by MorleyDev »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8668 on: September 14, 2018, 12:43:55 pm »

Loud Whispers did dismiss all of those academics and researchers as being EU shills, asserting that there very existence is "an old lobbying trick to manufacture consensus", and I heavily dispute that attitude. I call it what I think it is: Dangerous and destructive, and if it enters the fabric of our society then it I think that attitude will destroy and cripple the foundations upon which that research and technology he said we should invest in is based upon.
I am pointing out the inherent conflict of interest in relying upon someone who receives economic benefits directly from an institution to receive an appraisal of aforementioned institution. Your argument is that we require the EU to fund our research using our money, because academicians who are being paid by the European Union have said so. Therefore we should not consider funding our research with our money directly, because the academics have said it is impossible despite it being possible. But alas, now I am a cancer who must be excised from the fabric of society. Guess I gotta go to jail now, wee lad, the neoliberals win again, if only I had billions to spend on failing at lobbying

*EDIT
Sorry, I was wrong. It's not academics, it's senior administrative staff with 6 figure salaries, who are saying we can't fund our own research. Figures it's the same people cutting pay and overtime for research staff who are worried about our ability to fund research
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 12:48:14 pm by Loud Whispers »
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MorleyDev

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Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8669 on: September 14, 2018, 12:47:55 pm »

Again, calling an attitude dangerous is not the same thing as saying the person who has it should be jailed. But sure, take any criticism as a call for you to be publicly executed why not.

Anyway, I did not mention funding at all because funding is not the only concern they raise. It's a whole system that allows for cross-continent co-operation between universities, researches and businesses which we stand to lose access to.

https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/news/Pages/Downturn-in-UK-participation-in-latest-EU-research-programme-statistics.aspx
"The UK benefits enormously from the access to vital networks, funding and talent Horizon 2020 provides. It allows researchers to collaborate with world-leading experts on life-changing research, with knock-on benefits for the economy, society and individuals in the UK."
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 12:58:47 pm by MorleyDev »
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