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[scriver]

Ooooh, I've been promoted to "someone at the top". I did use to buy my sandwhiches from the same shop that Verhofstadt patroned.

No, it's just that Belgium is part of the whole France-Germany block, so you wanting to route that grants them more power than they already have (and ignoring objections that it would mean less power and less sovereignity for smaller countries) isn't very surprising.

This is exactly directly related to the reason the EU doesn't work now and certainly wouldn't work as parliament-run - the "fuck you, got mine" attitude of it's most influential members.

[Dorsidwarf]

I really, honestly do not get how letting them have their culture (as long as it's frictionless, of course) would impede us in our ability to keep our culture.

I think the big 'thing' is that it's not frictionless and there are lots of very real problems going on.

:/

[penguinofhonor]

Read the quote in his post, man. Antsan is responding to the idea that a hypothetical frictionless situation would be the worst possible thing for Europe.

[Antsan]

I really, honestly do not get how letting them have their culture (as long as it's frictionless, of course) would impede us in our ability to keep our culture.

I think the big 'thing' is that it's not frictionless and there are lots of very real problems going on.

:/

What penguinofhonor said.
More specifically: I want to minimize friction exactly because friction is detrimental to the culture I have and value. I already can live together with religious people in absolute peace while I myself am an atheist. Building up antagonisms for the sake of "protecting" that culture is completely backwards – instead I need to augment the additional culture that's coming to settle near me with the idea of secularism. That's not possible if I alienate them from day one.

And as I am of the opinion that they're going to come one way or another I'll of course want the one that leaves me with the best option to make them accepting of ideas like secularism. Given that they probably want peace and prosperity, completely independent of their culture, it is best to demonstrate visibly that the cultural ideals I value are conductive to these things.

[Sonlirain]

Why does it mean that we're giving up our own culture? I am really wanting for some description of how that would happen. Only because I'm letting people live near me and don't expect them to act as I do doesn't mean that I have to take on their culture.

Oh my. my neighboor is arabic and sweared at guy for eating a ham sandwich last month. I better not be seen by him carrying pork from the market.
Oh my. my neighboor said I/my wife dresses slutty and should wear a longer skirt. Better wear less revealing clothing lest he gets offended.
Oh my. some islamic teens broke windows in the house next door because whoever lived there had music playing on ramadan. Better not play any music lest i offend them too!

That's how you pretty much give in bit after bit slowly cooked like a frog not realizing the water is getting hotter.

[Sheb]

Ooooh, I've been promoted to "someone at the top". I did use to buy my sandwhiches from the same shop that Verhofstadt patroned.

No, it's just that Belgium is part of the whole France-Germany block, so you wanting to route that grants them more power than they already have (and ignoring objections that it would mean less power and less sovereignity for smaller countries) isn't very surprising.

This is exactly directly related to the reason the EU doesn't work now and certainly wouldn't work as parliament-run - the "fuck you, got mine" attitude of it's most influential members.

How are we part of the German-French block? We are a small country, and I certainly wouldn't consider us one of the more influential member. Indeed, part of the reason I'm so ferociously pro-EU is that I'm persuaded that Belgium, left on its own, would be fucked without remorse by its neighbours.*

Of course, some countries have more influence that some others within the EU (it'd be rather antidemocratic if a couple hundred thousands cypriots had the same weight as millions of Swedes, no?). But what make you think that, without the EU, those power dynamic would be lesser? There would still be powerful and less powerful countries.

No, if anything, I'd like the EU to be run more like a proper federal country, where the issue that are better addressed at the European levels can be decided by an elected legislature representing the whole of Europe, rather than by the arguing of a few heads of governments.


* That's also part of the reason I've not really been arguing strongly for Brexin. I still think the UK should stay, but they are big enough that they wouldn't suffer too much on their own.

[Antsan]

Why does it mean that we're giving up our own culture? I am really wanting for some description of how that would happen. Only because I'm letting people live near me and don't expect them to act as I do doesn't mean that I have to take on their culture.

Oh my. my neighboor is arabic and sweared at guy for eating a ham sandwich last month. I better not be seen by him carrying pork from the market.
Oh my. my neighboor said I/my wife dresses slutty and should wear a longer skirt. Better wear less revealing clothing lest he gets offended.
Oh my. some islamic teens broke windows in the house next door because whoever lived there had music playing on ramadan. Better not play any music lest i offend them too!

That's how you pretty much give in bit after bit slowly cooked like a frog not realizing the water is getting hotter.

Wow. So you're saying that you don't value your culture enough to actually protect it because it might be offensive, unless that protection is so drastic and offensive that it is beyond your moral event horizon.
Or in other words: You're too spineless to have a bit of a spat with people in the future, so you want soldiers to deal with the problem now.

[Willfor]

Why does it mean that we're giving up our own culture? I am really wanting for some description of how that would happen. Only because I'm letting people live near me and don't expect them to act as I do doesn't mean that I have to take on their culture.

Oh my. my neighboor is arabic and sweared at guy for eating a ham sandwich last month. I better not be seen by him carrying pork from the market.
Oh my. my neighboor said I/my wife dresses slutty and should wear a longer skirt. Better wear less revealing clothing lest he gets offended.
Oh my. some islamic teens broke windows in the house next door because whoever lived there had music playing on ramadan. Better not play any music lest i offend them too!

That's how you pretty much give in bit after bit slowly cooked like a frog not realizing the water is getting hotter.

"Oh my. I am suddenly encountering assholes for apparently the first time in my life, and do not know how to deal with them." 

[Sonlirain]

Why does it mean that we're giving up our own culture? I am really wanting for some description of how that would happen. Only because I'm letting people live near me and don't expect them to act as I do doesn't mean that I have to take on their culture.

Oh my. my neighboor is arabic and sweared at guy for eating a ham sandwich last month. I better not be seen by him carrying pork from the market.
Oh my. my neighboor said I/my wife dresses slutty and should wear a longer skirt. Better wear less revealing clothing lest he gets offended.
Oh my. some islamic teens broke windows in the house next door because whoever lived there had music playing on ramadan. Better not play any music lest i offend them too!

That's how you pretty much give in bit after bit slowly cooked like a frog not realizing the water is getting hotter.

Wow. So you're saying that you don't value your culture enough to actually protect it because it might be offensive, unless that protection is so drastic and offensive that it is beyond your moral event horizon.
Or in other words: You're too spineless to have a bit of a spat with people in the future, so you want soldiers to deal with the problem now.

Mind you. You will be considered racist and/or Islamophobic if you try

[Sheb]

Why does it mean that we're giving up our own culture? I am really wanting for some description of how that would happen. Only because I'm letting people live near me and don't expect them to act as I do doesn't mean that I have to take on their culture.

Oh my. my neighboor is arabic and sweared at guy for eating a ham sandwich last month. I better not be seen by him carrying pork from the market.
Oh my. my neighboor said I/my wife dresses slutty and should wear a longer skirt. Better wear less revealing clothing lest he gets offended.
Oh my. some islamic teens broke windows in the house next door because whoever lived there had music playing on ramadan. Better not play any music lest i offend them too!

That's how you pretty much give in bit after bit slowly cooked like a frog not realizing the water is getting hotter.

Wow. So you're saying that you don't value your culture enough to actually protect it because it might be offensive, unless that protection is so drastic and offensive that it is beyond your moral event horizon.
Or in other words: You're too spineless to have a bit of a spat with people in the future, so you want soldiers to deal with the problem now.

Mind you. You will be considered racist and/or Islamophobic if you try

Nope? Not by the vast majority of people, muslim included... Much less than if you advocate keeping all muslims out so you don't have to deal with the fact that some of them might act dickish at some point in the future.

[Antsan]

Mind you. You will be considered racist and/or Islamophobic if you try

I wouldn't know by whom. I somehow feel like I have greater exposure to the subculture you accuse of doing these things than you, given that I am kind of part of that subculture. Yet I yet have to encounter that supposed witch-hunt happening where I am berated as islamophobic only because I say that I can dress how I want and eat what I want, no matter what my Muslim neighbor says.

Somehow it seems that it's always the islamophobes who say that you're going to be called islamophobic for ridiculous reasons.

[Willfor]

Mind you. You will be considered racist and/or Islamophobic if you try :P

I wouldn't know by whom. I somehow feel like I have greater exposure to the subculture you accuse of doing these things than you, given that I am kind of part of that subculture. Yet I yet have to encounter that supposed witch-hunt happening where I am berated as islamophobic only because I say that I can dress how I want and eat what I want, no matter what my Muslim neighbor says.

Somehow it seems that it's always the islamophobes who say that you're going to be called islamophobic for ridiculous reasons.

They can only cling to the belief they're being reasonable if the people they disagree with are being unreasonable. Therefore, being a normal person is being islamaphobic according to the people they oppose. Which, you know, is bullshit. But it makes a great shield to hide behind. :D

[Sonlirain]

Well i'm probably biased so i expect the worst of those people.
Still i get the luxury of living in a nationalist shithole where muslims who are already here are literally considering leaving due to prejudice and their mosques getting regularly arsoned.
So i feel reasonably safe overall.
Better safe then sorry right?

[Sheb]

Well i'm probably biased so i expect the worst of those people.
Still i get the luxury of living in a nationalist shithole where muslims who are already here literally considering leaving due to prejudice and their mosques getting regularly arsoned.
So i feel reasonably safe overall.
Better safe then sorry right?

Yeah, better burn places of worship and set the dogs on children and women, because otherwise I might have to suffer someone complaining I'm eating a pork sandwich one day.

[Sonlirain]

What can i say?
I hate beef.
And it's expensive anyway.