Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Shub-Nullgurath]

As for all the migrants already there, certainly for Germany and Sweden they have to acknowledge that their demographic change is permanent. To that end the first and foremost priority of the Germans and Swedish states is to stop trying to sell it like Newropeans or NewSwedes and sell it like it's cultural enrichment and some sort of economic awakening that will make everyone gay for the changes, long enough to buy time for immigrants to become future Germans and Swedes. That will be the biggest challenge, because without some great shared experience that is capable of uniting all the migrant groups together under one civic label, they will continue to kill one another long after the old europeans die, leaving a mess of a state full of people with no historical institutions they can use for protection
Europeans need a strong law court that applys to all and protects all regardless of faith

[TempAcc]

Prob beheaded a few people by now and got some underage concubines, all the in the name of progressiveness of course.

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The unholy fusion of spiritual discipline with smug

Tfw you are now thinking about how many thousand jihadis have western passports

“You find that a lot of the converts going to the Islamic State are girls, girls with problems, girls who have been prostitutes, girls with psychological and behavioral issues, sometimes borderline personalities,” said Marion van San, a senior researcher on foreign fighters at an institute affiliated with Erasmus University in Rotterdam. “Then someone comes along and promises that Allah is going to give them a second chance.”
Converts, experts say, also make easier targets. At least some tend to be lost souls searching for answers. For a minority of them, the radical ideology of the Islamic State is providing a heady sense of belonging, structure and a clear set of rules.

The spiritual void that is the West cannot die, because it already killed itself
Hahaha reminds me of the joke, eurojihadis don't know what they're running into when they fly to Syria, but they do know what they're running away from; when children lack structure, they make their own. Western nations have very broad, inclusive and minimal obligations to belong, but in doing so they make what makes one belong shallow and meaningless. Thus you get all these western kiddies seeking the most authoritative, the strongest and most extreme structures to control their lives - when individuals lack individual strength to control their lives, they pray to God for strength. When individuals lack a purpose in life, they pray to God for answers. When individuals lack any clergy to guide their studies, they are vulnerable to the most apocalyptic of sects

History goes in cycles, civilizations unite, civilizations collapse, and it all goes on and on. An exciting future is ahead!

[Shub-Nullgurath]

<snip>

[Rolepgeek]

So is one conclusion you could draw here that Western Europe embraced individualism too strongly, at the expense of community, LW?

I will admit to my agenda of trying to look at culture conflicts in the light of individualism vs. communalism. Too much of either and you get problems.

[smjjames]

I just hope all of our knowledge doesn't go with us when civilization collapses and enters a new dark age.

[Sergarr]

I just hope all of our knowledge doesn't go with us when civilization collapses and enters a new dark age.

China, Russia, South Korea, Singapore, there are plenty of authoritarian technological states to pick up the slack of carrying the knowledge forward for Europe and USA if they were even to fuck it up.

[Grim Portent]

So is one conclusion you could draw here that Western Europe embraced individualism too strongly, at the expense of community, LW?

I will admit to my agenda of trying to look at culture conflicts in the light of individualism vs. communalism. Too much of either and you get problems.

I would attribute it more to the ability for the disillusioned to be exposed to far more ideologies than before.

60 years ago someone who was dissatisfied with society either joined a local street gang, joined a fringe political group or ran off to some far away place on the basis of things they only dimly knew of, now they can find out about all sorts of things in great detail and speak to holders of extremist beliefs from the comfort of their own home.

The root problem is people becoming dissatisfied with society, which I would generally attribute to how little things have actually changed for a lot of people in the past few decades. Wages fail to keep up with inflation, unemployment among the youth goes up, the security net people have been relying on starts to fray, vital services don't get proper investment, vast chunks of the population are basically left to rot because there's no profit to be made from them, so on and so forth. In the past this sort of thing has driven people of every social class, even ones not directly affected by economic strife, to either fascism or socialism, and things like IS are basically just another flavour of fascism, just one rooted in Islamic conservative rhetoric rather than Christian conservative rhetoric (thought the two are similar anyway) like most fascist movements in the west have been.

[Shub-Nullgurath]

The root problem is people becoming dissatisfied with society, which I would generally attribute to how little things have actually changed for a lot of people in the past few decades. Wages fail to keep up with inflation, unemployment among the youth goes up, the security net people have been relying on starts to fray, vital services don't get proper investment, vast chunks of the population are basically left to rot because there's no profit to be made from them, so on and so forth. In the past this sort of thing has driven people of every social class, even ones not directly affected by economic strife, to either fascism or socialism, and things like IS are basically just another flavour of fascism, just one rooted in Islamic conservative rhetoric rather than Christian conservative rhetoric (thought the two are similar anyway) like most fascist movements in the west have been.

I'd say the opposite, personally. Things have changed too much but progressivism (which I prefer to call changism) has managed to make it so that everyone is worse off than they were before.

Your average working man can no longer earn enough money to support two people, so his partner has to work too. If they have children then their wages stretch even thinner. Every day they come home exhausted and have to look after their children. Every day, their children have no real parenting given to them because both parents are exhausted. The house is dirty and disorganised, the children are neglected and the family is a just a grouping of people who live in the household.

But, no, the old days were the problem where one person in the household had to work and the other could cook, clean, buy groceries and generally deal with the running of the household. It was especially awful that kids were able to have a primary caregiver instead of having to have two people they barely saw.

[smjjames]

I really doubt the blame lies entirely on failure to parent properly. Yes, there are going to be some families who are dysfunctional, but theres no way to blame parenting for the whole problems.

Theres so many other factors in there besides parenting, just blaming it on parenting requires ignoring every other factor.

[Shub-Nullgurath]

I really doubt the blame lies entirely on failure to parent properly. Yes, there are going to be some families who are dysfunctional, but theres no way to blame parenting for the whole problems.

Theres so many other factors in there besides parenting, just blaming it on parenting requires ignoring every other factor.

I'm not blaming the parents. I'm blaming society for forcing two person working class households. Working class wages are (deliberately) not kept up with inflation too since the government imports migrants any time there's too little unemployment.

[smjjames]

I really doubt the blame lies entirely on failure to parent properly. Yes, there are going to be some families who are dysfunctional, but theres no way to blame parenting for the whole problems.

Theres so many other factors in there besides parenting, just blaming it on parenting requires ignoring every other factor.

I'm not blaming the parents. I'm blaming society for forcing two person working class households. Working class wages are (deliberately) not kept up with inflation too since the government imports migrants any time there's too little unemployment.

I have no idea whether working class wages were deliberately not kept up with inflation or were just simply ignored, or progressives or whoever thought wages would just keep up on their own.

There's two sides of the coin to the two person working class households thing, the first is that more women entered the workforce (for a variety of reasons, including the feminism movement, but that's not what we're discussing) due to more opportunities, and having women enter the workforce is actually a good thing. The second is that low wages are certainly a factor, but not the only factor.

And third, no, society didn't 'force' women into the workforce, thus society didn't force two working parent households.

[Shub-Nullgurath]

I have no idea whether working class wages were deliberately not kept up with inflation or were just simply ignored, or progressives or whoever thought wages would just keep up on their own.

There's two sides of the coin to the two person working class households thing, the first is that more women entered the workforce (for a variety of reasons, including the feminism movement, but that's not what we're discussing) due to more opportunities, and having women enter the workforce is actually a good thing. The second is that low wages are certainly a factor, but not the only factor.

And third, no, society didn't 'force' women into the workforce, thus society didn't force two working parent households.

You double the workforce, you double the amount of people able to do jobs without having double the jobs to do, you halve the wage. It's really simple economics. Supply vs demand.

[TempAcc]

Me thinks the problem is far from being an economic issue alone. Look at the main course for today's islamization issue, sweden. Sweden had and still has one of the highest standards of living and succesful welfare states of the recent years, with high wages and government programs that helped people with education, housing, healthcare, etc, and yet it has HUGE youth suicide rates. And as much as people might cry about it, sweden is the last place on europe were you'd find a society dominated by "conservative christian rethoric". In fact, if there was such a thing in sweden, then it wouldn't be in the fucking swamp its currently sinking in, at least not in regards to illegal immigrants and islam taking their children away.

People threw away their sense of responsibility with society and cultural identity. They emptied themselves and their children expecting this to open the doors to ultimate freedom, and instead it only made them empty and lonely. They've surrounded themselves with bland, safe, placid lives of no expectations and few responsibilities. They threw their religion away because they though it restricted them rather than make them question themselves, they threw their culture away because they were too lazy to learn about it, they threw their family away because it made them unconfortable at times, so when someone with a strong message, regardless of how insane it is, comes and opens their doors to these people, said people grab onto it, because it gives them something they didn't have in their confort zones: a sense of purpose. Whats worse, society has arranged a system that prevents people from speaking out against said strong message, because its racist and islamophobic to do so, even if clerics go around in the streets telling people what they should and shouldn't do and advocate violence to nonbelievers.

In being too tolerant, people have become tolerant of intolerance.

Families today are feeble arrangements of people who demand love from one another without demanding respect first, where parents are distant because they have to both work and leave their children at school and at home because they are too exhausted to do anything about it when they're not working. That is, if people even have more than one child because this is europe we're talking about, lel.

Thats how your swedish dudeweed bisexual neighbor who faps to /d/ becomes al swedi the decapitator.

Sure, your circle of internet friends may make fun of your catholic neighbor and his housewive wife, who goes to mass, waves a flag during national holidays and ocasionaly hunts and eats a deer or two, but when push comes to shove, its him who's gonna be keeping his family safe and not taking underage concubines and shooting his brothers in the head because hassan the machete jihadist told him to do so.

[Grim Portent]

The root problem is people becoming dissatisfied with society, which I would generally attribute to how little things have actually changed for a lot of people in the past few decades. Wages fail to keep up with inflation, unemployment among the youth goes up, the security net people have been relying on starts to fray, vital services don't get proper investment, vast chunks of the population are basically left to rot because there's no profit to be made from them, so on and so forth. In the past this sort of thing has driven people of every social class, even ones not directly affected by economic strife, to either fascism or socialism, and things like IS are basically just another flavour of fascism, just one rooted in Islamic conservative rhetoric rather than Christian conservative rhetoric (thought the two are similar anyway) like most fascist movements in the west have been.

I'd say the opposite, personally. Things have changed too much but progressivism (which I prefer to call changism) has managed to make it so that everyone is worse off than they were before.

Your average working man can no longer earn enough money to support two people, so his partner has to work too. If they have children then their wages stretch even thinner. Every day they come home exhausted and have to look after their children. Every day, their children have no real parenting given to them because both parents are exhausted. The house is dirty and disorganised, the children are neglected and the family is a just a grouping of people who live in the household.

But, no, the old days were the problem where one person in the household had to work and the other could cook, clean, buy groceries and generally deal with the running of the household. It was especially awful that kids were able to have a primary caregiver instead of having to have two people they barely saw.

That actually seems more like the problem of progressive policies being appropriated by the financial elite. Things like the reduction of religion in politics, gay rights, women's equality, race rights and the like were closely tied with pro-working class movements that wanted to redistribute wealth and extend social safety nets.

From my reading on the subject there's a very big difference between the 'left wing' of the late 80s, 90s and 2000s and the left wing from before it. The former essentially abandoned the idea of state owned services that would ensure the provision of basic needs to everyone in favour of privatisation and market economics. Good example would be Tony Blair's New Labour in Britain, which was in favour of slowly privatising important public services and contributed to the erosion and outsourcing of aspects of the NHS rather than expanding on and improving it while maintaining total state control over the institution.

Men and women gaining equal opportunities and protections is an actively good thing, the problem is that it's been used by governments and corporations as an excuse to exploit people on the basis that with twice as many people being able to work equally everyone should be expected to work rather than assuming that it should just make the choice of who works more flexible. A proper requirement for income to reflect inflation and proper controls on how rapidly cost of living can rise would have allowed families to continue having one parent work and one stay at home but allowed for it to be either parent depending on what suited them best, while also making more room for non-heterosexual family units in society since a Lesbian couple would not be financially disadvantaged compared to a relationship that includes a man once proper equal pay protection were in place.