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[scriver]

The context was Sweden.

[hector13]

The context was immigration empowering the far-right, the exemplar was Sweden.

[ChairmanPoo]

the Civil Guard is using rubber bullets against protesters. 38 wounded, 3 seriously so.

[da_nang]

Spain is currently a shitshow, but apparently that's the only way to restore rule of law.

Puigdemont, the madman of infinite wisdom, should not have made it binding. But I guess he was too tired to play the politics game and decided to pull the trigger instead.

Spanish Civil War 2: Catalan Boogaloo coming to your theater, soon.

[martinuzz]

My newspaper reports over 330 people have been injured by police intervention now.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/live-onze-correspondent-mensen-zeggen-nu-weten-we-dat-we-in-dictatuur-leven~a4519474/

[ChairmanPoo]

Addenum: 337 wounded (edit: ninjaed)

Spain is currently a shitshow, but apparently that's the only way to restore rule of law.

You're shitting me right.

BTW they didnt want to let them do a referendum, binding or not, period.

Also, Puigdemont said he wouldnt declare independence unilaterally.

I'm kind of wondering about what kind of news are people listening to because everyone here seems to idealize or demonize the nationalists. And guys, the situation is far more nuanced than that. The referendum is very flawed the way it was laid down, but its also an  understsndable move after 30 years of broken promises

[smjjames]

Primarily a consequence of not knowing the nuances maybe? Plus the Spanish news media is likely already polarized, so....

And yeah, I get that it wasn't a kneejerk reaction like the whole California seccession thing was (the effort died before getting a chance to get on the ballot).

[da_nang]

BTW they didnt want to let them do a referendum, binding or not, period.

Also, Puigdemont said he wouldnt declare independence unilaterally.

I'm kind of wondering about what kind of news are people listening to because everyone here seems to idealize or demonize the nationalists. And guys, the situation is far more nuanced than that. The referendum is very flawed the way it was laid down, but its also an  understsndable move after 30 years of broken promises

Well someone clearly is preparing to declare independence within 48 hours.

The Catalan government insists that the results of the October vote will be legally binding. If successful, the regional government will declare independence from Spain 48 hours after the result is in and set about building a sovereign state.

And without the consent of Spain, that's textbook definition of unilateral secession.

EDIT: So he changed his mind because of the crackdown?

Puigdemont originally said that if the “yes” vote won, the Catalan government would declare independence within 48 hours, but regional leaders have since acknowledged Madrid’s crackdown has undermined the vote.

[smjjames]

The Guardian has a liveblog on it btw: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live

[Reelya]

... Dragging people out of voting booths by their hair, and spanish police attacking catalan fire fighting services. This is all great PR for Spain, right there.

[ChairmanPoo]

... Dragging people out of voting booths by their hair, and spanish police attacking catalan fire fighting services. This is all great PR for Spain, right there.

Indeed. See, I think that the referendum has gained importance just by the way the central goverment has given it importance. If they had mostly ignored it and kept as they had for the last week (seizing material, bringing down computer systems, etc...) then it likely would have busted quietly. But with violent reprisal they´re bringing to the mind of many Francoist era repression (and post-Francoist era, too. In my homeland we had this sort of thing happen on a regular basis until very recently)

[smjjames]

It certainly seems like Rajoy is unintentionally pushing the Catalans towards actual seccession and he'll have nobody but himself to blame. Also, Catalan MPs and opposition MPs are calling for Rajoy to resign over the police violence.

[ChairmanPoo]

Unintentionally? This sort of thing earns him votes among his more radical supporters.

[hector13]

BTW they didnt want to let them do a referendum, binding or not, period.

Also, Puigdemont said he wouldnt declare independence unilaterally.

I'm kind of wondering about what kind of news are people listening to because everyone here seems to idealize or demonize the nationalists. And guys, the situation is far more nuanced than that. The referendum is very flawed the way it was laid down, but its also an  understsndable move after 30 years of broken promises

Well someone clearly is preparing to declare independence within 48 hours.

The Catalan government insists that the results of the October vote will be legally binding. If successful, the regional government will declare independence from Spain 48 hours after the result is in and set about building a sovereign state.

And without the consent of Spain, that's textbook definition of unilateral secession.

EDIT: So he changed his mind because of the crackdown?

Puigdemont originally said that if the “yes” vote won, the Catalan government would declare independence within 48 hours, but regional leaders have since acknowledged Madrid’s crackdown has undermined the vote.

Perhaps they are referring to the fear that if you go out to vote you'll likely get hurt, and that will make the vote become non-representative of the views in the region.

Also, if the people voted to become independent and Puigdemont declares such, it doesn't really matter because nobody of any influence in the world is going to recognise it. Rajoy knows this, yet is still happy to use violence to get them to stop, instead of making the Catalans feel like they're a valued part of Spain.

This is not a good thing.

[smjjames]

Unintentionally? This sort of thing earns him votes among his more radical supporters.

Seems like a really dumb thing to directly cause the balkanization of Spain, and Catalonia leaving will hurt quite a lot since it's a quarter of the Spanish economy.

BTW they didnt want to let them do a referendum, binding or not, period.

Also, Puigdemont said he wouldnt declare independence unilaterally.

I'm kind of wondering about what kind of news are people listening to because everyone here seems to idealize or demonize the nationalists. And guys, the situation is far more nuanced than that. The referendum is very flawed the way it was laid down, but its also an  understsndable move after 30 years of broken promises

Well someone clearly is preparing to declare independence within 48 hours.

The Catalan government insists that the results of the October vote will be legally binding. If successful, the regional government will declare independence from Spain 48 hours after the result is in and set about building a sovereign state.

And without the consent of Spain, that's textbook definition of unilateral secession.

EDIT: So he changed his mind because of the crackdown?

Puigdemont originally said that if the “yes” vote won, the Catalan government would declare independence within 48 hours, but regional leaders have since acknowledged Madrid’s crackdown has undermined the vote.

Perhaps they are referring to the fear that if you go out to vote you'll likely get hurt, and that will make the vote become non-representative of the views in the region.

Also, if the people voted to become independent and Puigdemont declares such, it doesn't really matter because nobody of any influence in the world is going to recognise it. Rajoy knows this, yet is still happy to use violence to get them to stop, instead of making the Catalans feel like they're a valued part of Spain.

This is not a good thing.

Putin probably would, just to give a middle finger to the West. Also, Trump has said that he'd rather Spain remain united, but I don't think he has said anything specific about intending to recognize an independent Catalonia or not.