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[Cthulhu_Pakabol]

Hey again! I'm still working on this largely cosmetic Wild West conversion mod, and one of the biggest gameplay changes is the prevalence of firearms (and notable lack of mellee weapons) in the more "civilized" entities. Due to the lack of mellee weaponry for these entities, I've been trying to give the firearms some variety- pistols and revolvers attack more quickly but penetrate less, rifles take a while and penetrate more. I've also tried to create a shotgun and give it a niche, but here I've run into some problems.

First off, I see no way to give the shotgun a multi-projectile attack. This, I feel, would be what makes it actually distinct from the other firearms- the ability to hit multiple points at once.

If there's no way that would work, the other potential niche I want it to occupy is that of a very powerful weapon- strong enough to shatter bones and send targets flying backwards. However, despite my experiments with the ammo for the shotgun (high velocity modifier and density) I can't seem o get the desired effect.

Any suggestions on either front?

[thatkid]

Multiple projectiles from a single attack aren't possible.
You could make the ammo blunt instead of edged with a high surface area and velocity, though, and that should might maybe help towards knocking people back. I honestly don't know if it's possible for ranged attacks to knock people around the way, say, hammers do however.

[kiwiphoenix]

You'll need to tweak things in the arena, but you can make it happen with extreme SHOOT_FORCE and SHOOT_MAXVEL values.

In the 2033 mod I used to be making, there was a sniper rifle that did roughly what you're describing.
The gun had both variables set to 1mil - it routinely threw adult humans back 1-2 spaces with body/head shots, and easily removed hands/feet. Ammo was SIZE:60 and EDGE:20:120K.
That said, another one had both vars set to 60K, and even that would occasionally knock back particularly weedy people. Ammo was SIZE:45 and EDGE:20:50K.

Kind of a hack job, but it produced satisfying results. Would be even easier for you, I imagine, since in a Western setting you don't need to worry about body armour and penetration.
Making kevlar armour that saw no effect from weak rounds, broken bones from others, and full penetration from powerful ones took days.


BtW, if you're gonna put in guns at all, I would actually recommend playing with the tissues above all else. I got good results from MAJOR_ARTERIES in the brain, (throat), heart, and spleen, as well as lowering the pain value of bone/muscle and raising it for organs.
Wound up with a much more brutal and fast-paced combat system, in which a shot to the head or torso stood a good chance of killing or crippling. However, people could fight through multiple limb wounds or no-organ body shots.
The randomness of this system, I found, helps preserve the fast-paced feel of a gunfight. It took skilled marksmen about 10-15 rounds on average to kill a humanoid target, which while not perfect, is a step up from the immersion-breaking dozens of arrows that people routinely take in Vanilla.

Tried putting MAJOR_ARTERIES in the Upper Legs, too, but then nearly every hit to the thigh was severing a femoral artery. Morbidly funny, in a way, but stupid.


Aaaanyway, that kind of got rambly. Sorry. Hope some of it helps.

[Cthulhu_Pakabol]

It's a huge help, actually. Thanks! I really appreciate the tips on the arteries and how they change up the combat system. And you're definitely right about the western setting- metal armor actually doesn't exist at al, even in the most advanced civ, and one entity (the elf stand-in, essentially) will barely even have clothing at all, as well as no real access to firearms (so bows, blowguns and basic mellee weapons only.) So it should be interesting seeing how those groups interact with each other.

I also had an idea for a sort of early gatling gun- one that can fire extremely fast, but is so heavy that it's suicide to try and run around with it (which encourages "planting it" in one place and using it sparingly). Is it possible to make the preparation/recovery speed faster than, say, 1? I feel that might come close to simulating the extremely fast fire rate as compared to the other weapons.

[Teneb]

Is it possible to make the preparation/recovery speed faster than, say, 1? I feel that might come close to simulating the extremely fast fire rate as compared to the other weapons.

Prepare and recover values are only used for melee attacks.

[Deon]

Which is a damn shame.

[kiwiphoenix]

Happy to help.

...one entity (the elf stand-in, essentially) will barely even have clothing at all, as well as no real access to firearms (so bows, blowguns and basic mellee weapons only.) So it should be interesting seeing how those groups interact with each other.

Another thing discovered while working on my post-apoc mod:
There is a possible way to make primitive projectiles entertainingly different from modern ones.
When the game spawns NPCs with BLOWGUN-skill weapons, it will often (always?) coat the ammo with locally-available venom.
Granted, half the time you'll see arrows coated in silly things like honeybee venom, but occasionally you'll get something exotic like brown recluse or copperhead venom.

Actually... if your not-elves retain their AT_PEACE_WITH_WILDLIFE status (which I believe is what allows them to live in Savage areas?) and are given the ability to settle in deserts... you could conceivably one day face people who live in cacti and wield weapons coated in brain-melting Giant Desert Scorpion venom. Kind of hardcore.


Personally gave longarms and pistols the CROSSBOW and BOW skills, and gave nonmechanical weapons the BLOWGUN skill. The phenomenal localisation utility available here on the forums can then be used to smooth over the jury-rigging.
This would mean having bows and blowguns share a skill, though - not sure how badly that clashes with your vision.

Again, honestly not trying to tell you how to structure your own mod - just things I discovered through trial-and-error while working on a broadly similar concept.

[Insanegame27]

PTW

[Cthulhu_Pakabol]

Happy to help.

...one entity (the elf stand-in, essentially) will barely even have clothing at all, as well as no real access to firearms (so bows, blowguns and basic mellee weapons only.) So it should be interesting seeing how those groups interact with each other.

Another thing discovered while working on my post-apoc mod:
There is a possible way to make primitive projectiles entertainingly different from modern ones.
When the game spawns NPCs with BLOWGUN-skill weapons, it will often (always?) coat the ammo with locally-available venom.
Granted, half the time you'll see arrows coated in silly things like honeybee venom, but occasionally you'll get something exotic like brown recluse or copperhead venom.

Actually... if your not-elves retain their AT_PEACE_WITH_WILDLIFE status (which I believe is what allows them to live in Savage areas?) and are given the ability to settle in deserts... you could conceivably one day face people who live in cacti and wield weapons coated in brain-melting Giant Desert Scorpion venom. Kind of hardcore.


Personally gave longarms and pistols the CROSSBOW and BOW skills, and gave nonmechanical weapons the BLOWGUN skill. The phenomenal localisation utility available here on the forums can then be used to smooth over the jury-rigging.
This would mean having bows and blowguns share a skill, though - not sure how badly that clashes with your vision.

Again, honestly not trying to tell you how to structure your own mod - just things I discovered through trial-and-error while working on a broadly similar concept.

Well holy crap, that honestly sounds amazing. I ought to get on that right away. Thanks for helping me out so much with this, man!

[kiwiphoenix]

Ah, no worries, mate. Data's meant to be shared after all.

Haven't been able to do much modding since well before v0.42, and it's kind of nice to get vicariously involved again. Plus, you seem to have inspiration, drive, and curiosity, so I'm just excited to point out a couple of less-obvious tools and see what you do with them.

With that said, take my word with a grain of salt, and test the hell out of everything. I don't see how or why the update might have changed any of these things, but DF's web of dependencies is fragile at the best of times.


Which leads to yet another tangent, because apparently I never shut up in writing.
Just in case it hadn't occurred to you already, one can make life easier while testing combat variables by copying humans and adding IMMOBILE. Removing eyes seems to make them work better; not sure why. Optionally, remove all physical modifiers so any injuries inflicted are reflective of the human average.
The 10-15 rounds/fatality figure from before (technically, 12.6±07.2 for small&copper/leather, according to notes) was derived by using 50 of these guys in a modified arena. Took maybe 15 minutes, most of that in waiting and in recording ammunition counts from unit inventories.

Yeah, DF is a place where mass executions can be turned into a science - and I mean proper science, where half your time is spent running complex programs on a potato, and the other half is spent managing spreadsheets.

[Cthulhu_Pakabol]

Ah, no worries, mate. Data's meant to be shared after all.

Haven't been able to do much modding since well before v0.42, and it's kind of nice to get vicariously involved again. Plus, you seem to have inspiration, drive, and curiosity, so I'm just excited to point out a couple of less-obvious tools and see what you do with them.

With that said, take my word with a grain of salt, and test the hell out of everything. I don't see how or why the update might have changed any of these things, but DF's web of dependencies is fragile at the best of times.


Which leads to yet another tangent, because apparently I never shut up in writing.
Just in case it hadn't occurred to you already, one can make life easier while testing combat variables by copying humans and adding IMMOBILE. Removing eyes seems to make them work better; not sure why. Optionally, remove all physical modifiers so any injuries inflicted are reflective of the human average.
The 10-15 rounds/fatality figure from before (technically, 12.6±07.2 for small&copper/leather, according to notes) was derived by using 50 of these guys in a modified arena. Took maybe 15 minutes, most of that in waiting and in recording ammunition counts from unit inventories.

Yeah, DF is a place where mass executions can be turned into a science - and I mean proper science, where half your time is spent running complex programs on a potato, and the other half is spent managing spreadsheets.

Thanks again! You've been a huge help so far, and I'm very thankful that you continue to be so. I'm taking your test dummy idea into account for sure- everything else you've put forward thus far has greatly improved the mod.

One question I have is if axes that are listed as tools instead of weapons can be used in fort mode to cut down trees- at present, the Settler civ has a single type of axe among their weapons to facilitate tree cutting in fort mode, and in adventure mode it's a little immersion-breaking to see axemen patrolling alongside riflemen- I figure thisd be rectified by having an axe as a tool, though like I said, I'm not sure if that works.

Thanks again!

[kiwiphoenix]

One question I have is if axes that are listed as tools instead of weapons can be used in fort mode to cut down trees- at present, the Settler civ has a single type of axe among their weapons to facilitate tree cutting in fort mode, and in adventure mode it's a little immersion-breaking to see axemen patrolling alongside riflemen- I figure thisd be rectified by having an axe as a tool, though like I said, I'm not sure if that works.

Again, no worries!

Haven't played around with it much, but I seem to recall tools being excluded from all tasks that seek weapons - including tree-chopping and mining.

The mixing of ranged and melee may be a necessary evil, I think.

That said, one option is to give members of your settlers some token natural skill in firearms.
PRO: When NPC soldiers are spawned, they are armed according to their highest skill. Most gain no experience whatsoever before being deployed (hence Vanilla goblins being pushovers against a moderately-skilled militia) which means they are relatively likely to be assigned according to their natural skill.
NPCs will have to gain legitimate skill in a weapon in order to overcome the RNG bias, providing an immersive reason as to why some histfigs continue to wield axes instead of rifles - they're simply more comfortable with cold steel.
CONS: It's another quick-and-dirty fix - covers up the issue rather than eliminating it. Higher natural skill levels increase reliability, but they also devalue training, and quickly introduce balancing issues.
Also, instead of 'recruits', all fresh draftees will be labelled as gunmen, making it difficult to visually differentiate a rifle-armed veteran from an empty-handed newbie.

Again, up to you if the benefits outweigh the side-effects.

[Meph]

Yeah, tools wont work.

I do remember an older dfhack script though that would allow more interesting ranged weapons, I think Roses wrote it (?).

Sadly there is not way to determine a weapons range, spray, accuracity, and rate of fire.