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[Conradine]

Why gremlins are slautherable when allowed as pets ) for the goblins ) while trolls are not? I mean what in the RAWS?

[scamtank]

I'd imagine it's because gremlins have PET_EXOTIC while trolls have no PET tags of any kind.

Evil civilizations have this weird solidarity rule that allows dumb, evil sapients (ogres and trolls pretty much, SLOW_LEARNER could be the cincher) to join as sort of honorary half-citizen half-pet half-siege weapon members.

[Cheesoburgor]

I'd imagine it's because gremlins have PET_EXOTIC while trolls have no PET tags of any kind.

Evil civilizations have this weird solidarity rule that allows dumb, evil sapients (ogres and trolls pretty much, SLOW_LEARNER could be the cincher) to join as sort of honorary half-citizen half-pet half-siege weapon members.

Is there any specific tag that causes this behavior in a civ?

[scamtank]

All I know for sure is that it happens with baseline goblins, which are EVIL creatures by nature and have a civilization with USE_EVIL_ANIMALS. I guess that it's more about the former, but missing the latter could also block it.

[vjmdhzgr]

All I know for sure is that it happens with baseline goblins, which are EVIL creatures by nature and have a civilization with USE_EVIL_ANIMALS. I guess that it's more about the former, but missing the latter could also block it.

Pretty sure it's more about the latter. I don't know of any case where the creature changes what things the civilization has access to.

[FantasticDorf]

There are bugs surrounding butchering since as of the latest version not least limited to corpses of your own race (goblins/whatever applicable) and trolls (who get gathered in citizen corpse piles if playing under EVIL_CREATURES preference curiously even if they are wild) can't be butchered unless they carry the [PET/PET_EXOTIC] tag.

> Its also been mentioned in a mantis report (the details evade me, i will link if i can remember them at some point) that butchering in adventure mode for culturally accepted practice is also denied.

Evil preferences doesn't automatically apply [pet] to evil creatures, though having that as a mechanic would have made much of the process of altering raws to fix this problem (Just a personal gripe of having to trawl through my raw entries tweaking things here and there to make my goblin fortress viable and interesting)

I imagine elves probably have the same issue with unicorns (not that they would slaughter them, but they COULD) on the basis they don't carry pet tags either.

[pikachu17]

but if I add [CIV_CONTROLLABLE] or whatever the alternative in 42. is, to elves I can't have unicorns as a starting pet

[FantasticDorf]

but if I add [CIV_CONTROLLABLE] or whatever the alternative in 42. is, to elves I can't have unicorns as a starting pet

In the right generated worlds with elves in good forest biomes it shouldn't be a problem, goblins for instance can get a wealth of ogres from just the world generating their fortress/settlements on a evil plain and blizzard men from starting out on evil tundras.

[Tiler]

I'm thinking it is something to do with the [SLOW_LEARNER] token, actually; it seems to be one of those tokens that has a collection of functions. It seems to imply [INTELLIGENT] to some degree, but it also makes the race count as a pet in many ways and is not an acceptable tag for a civ level entity (you can generate a world with a SLOW_LEARNER race, but trying to play fortress mode with them results in auto-collapse). I imagine the pet-forcing behavior of the token doesn't change the "no butchering sapient species" rule.

[FantasticDorf]

I'm thinking it is something to do with the [SLOW_LEARNER] token, actually; it seems to be one of those tokens that has a collection of functions. It seems to imply [INTELLIGENT] to some degree, but it also makes the race count as a pet in many ways and is not an acceptable tag for a civ level entity (you can generate a world with a SLOW_LEARNER race, but trying to play fortress mode with them results in auto-collapse). I imagine the pet-forcing behavior of the token doesn't change the "no butchering sapient species" rule.

Not necessarily true. You can play with a slow learner race as long as you have at least one 'normal' civilian creature to buffer up the rest.  (true with fortress mode too)

example:

[STUPID_AS_ROCKS_CIV]

[SITE_CONTROLLABLE]
[CREATURE: *Custom intelligent creature you've made yourself or a relevant imported animalman/other as a 'buffer' to stop worldgen crashes*]
[CREATURE: TROLL]
[CREATURE: OGRE]
[SUBSELECT_SYMBOL:WAR:NAME_WAR]
[SELECT_SYMBOL:UGLY]
[SUBSELECT_SYMBOL:PRIMITIVE]
[WEAPON/ITEM/ARMOUR/TOOL etc.]

*To stop inundation i would recommend a high starting pop and a relatively mid-level ending pop (5000 or so) if your citizens are going to be particuarly powerful (blind cave ogres for instance i toyed with) they won't spiral out of control or murder your lag with existing races (which preferably your race should smush quick)

[preferences/jobs/settlement sites & types + ethics: whatever you want or plan to use (i applied artwork values to my mixed race blind ogre civ once as a sort of in-joke/challenge on the basis that they can't see and therefore make terrible engravings and embellishments)]
[Positions: area to tread carefully around, this is a good reason for worldgen crashes, establishing site only roles is recommended and i would highly recommend trying to set your outpost liason to be your intelligent creature type (they can be elected if your races have a low lifespan to cycle them out, i have elected ones on my goblin playthough so im not stuck with the same person) avoid mayoral roles and druidic roles because these incur crashes and keeping broker roles the same stops issues with the trade depot]

The game will collect these and scatter the settlements with single race in each site (so ogre towns and troll towns but no typically mixed settlements), but because trolls and ogre's don't speak, everyone will be hostile to you (embarks will be random chance to spawn with ogres or trolls as citizens, rerolling for your intelligent race or having intelligent common domestics to suppliment is advised - for the purposes of roleplay i suggest hobgoblins or some kind of typically servant race, ensure they have no [PET] tags but carry [COMMON DOMESTIC], squeaky voices are optional and you may opt for strange moodage or other tags just to make things interesting [prone to rage/alcohol dependent etc] this will also let you take them with you en-masse for a slave-force at 1 point each (unless you modify pet-value)

EDIT - Scratch that bit. Im thinking of the time i had my raws jumbled up and it enabled animal men citizens on embark. Though that was sweet, the incurring strangeness of everything else was not.

[Tiler]

Ah, that's a fair point. I didn't know mixed race civs could work like that outside of faking it with castes.

[FantasticDorf]

Another point to think about (whilst i was in the bath actuallly this occured to me) is that positions can be assigned to specific castes (male/female) and (if memory serves) creatures. So if you have atleast 1 intellligent creature assigned to (either your common domestic you will be bringing with you or a member of your civ) a expedition leader (or a person who can take diplomats) it should circumnavigate outright hostile behaviour without ethical cause

[POSITION: EXPEDITION_LEADER]
 [CREATURE: *Intelligent species]
 [CREATURE: *Intelligent species/servant species]

Additionally a work-around for a intelligent common domestic would be to make them [PACK_ANIMALS] (I briefly remembered that my camel men probably had pack/wagon animal tagged onto the original raws carried over to the animalmen template)

Or attaching [EVIL/GOOD/MOUNT(?)] in order to flag them up for use (I will test this in a second. I have a personal plan to establish troll castes so i can differentiate troll slaves/citizens in my own gobbo modded game) since pets aren't really drawn for common domestic embarks even if tamed fully without [PET_COMMON DOMESTIC] preferences

[Teneb]

Ah, that's a fair point. I didn't know mixed race civs could work like that outside of faking it with castes.

Mixed race is impossible. The closest you can get is how goblins and trolls works by default. Setting multiple creatures in an entity will cause the game to alternate the creature when creating a civilization. So instead of two troll civilizations, you have a troll and an ogre civ each.

[FantasticDorf]

Ah, that's a fair point. I didn't know mixed race civs could work like that outside of faking it with castes.

Mixed race is impossible. The closest you can get is how goblins and trolls works by default. Setting multiple creatures in an entity will cause the game to alternate the creature when creating a civilization. So instead of two troll civilizations, you have a troll and an ogre civ each.

The game will collect these and scatter the settlements with single race in each site (so ogre towns and troll towns but no typically mixed settlements), but because trolls and ogre's don't speak, everyone will be hostile to you

I acknowledge this fact and i have mentioned it before. However just because they are spread out across towns, does not mean they aren't actually a mixed entity as a whole, every creature living in a civilized development is of that same entity civ. I have yet to engage further with the concept (my original experiment was shortlived) but migration will be the determining factor to them moving about from the home settlements, assigning entity roles ([wanderer/scout/merc etc) should get them out and about in worldgen to a extent besides from fortress mode movement (retiring the site once done hit max capacity and relatively trained militia/completed projects)

(You can also fix mixed race civ's via liberal application of slavery - Set ethics to 'yes' and establish a conquered site noble to oversee it. Goblins spiral out of control if assigned a outlet to exercise slavery, as they often overpower human hamlets and merge them into their armies, becoming ultra-dominant snowballing super-powers in less than 200 years)