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Author Topic: What are the origins/reasons of the hatred toward elves amongst the players?  (Read 6506 times)

int_ua

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I started playing somewhere around 0.34.xx and didn't have any problems with elves even when I chopped my entire embark clean of trees several times IIRC. Nor then neither in 0.42.05. The only inconvenience about elf caravans I know of is that they don't buy anything made of wood.

So, why the hatred (judging from the Reddit page at least)? Is it just because the game allows? Why the elves then? I know about danger rooms and other possibilities to treat dwarves even worse, but since players associate themselves with dwarves, it would be weird to hate dwarves. But at the same time I don't see a widespread hatred to humans ingame, for example. Or weak wildlife.

Is it because those who can't read the traders reactions or wiki end up in war with them and are irritated by their own stupidity this way? Is it because of some famous related developers/players views/jokes gone wrong? Judging from some game implementation facts it doesn't look like Tarn have any problems with any realism that some IRL hater groups have troubles accepting. And Tolkien books leave you a choice in that part, AFAIK.

Any comments not trying to answer the question will be ignored, offensive ones will be reported additionally, I don't feed building destroyers ;)
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Witty

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Mostly because it's an inside community joke

In previous versions of DF (pre-34.xx) - elves had a diplomat noble who would visit your fortress once you got some proper nobility. They'd mandate a tree cutting quota, and would become very upset if you broke that quota (they would also make short jokes). Currently these diplomats don't exist in vanilla, but they can be modded back in (though it's pretty unbalanced with the new multi-tile trees I'd imagine)

This coupled with their annoying habit to not accept wooden items (notably wooden bins full of non-wooden items) and leave entirely if you merely offered them has given elves a bad reputation in the community.
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Edward_Tohr

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Really, it boils down to "elves are arrogant jerks". Yeah, they might not declare war on you for accidentally offering them a gabbro amulet that menaces with spikes of alder, or for chopping down too many trees, but they still march on into your fortress, demand that you cease your woodcutting (including the underground mushrooms that they really shouldn't even know exist), and insult you the whole way, like they're doing you a favor by it.

Plus, there's the fact that humans bring aboveground crops, booze, and some metals. Goblins bring a lot of weapons-grade material, once you get them to part with it. Elves don't even bring plants normally, just some logs and plant products that can't be recycled into seeds/booze. So in addition to being haughty and arrogant, they also bring very little of value to your fortress, unless you particularly like the odd exotic animal. Or you butcher them for the fighting skills.

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Quietust, what would we ever do without you and your endless knowledge of v0.23a?
I was going to say "fail spectacularly", but you guys seem to be doing a great job of that already.

Dorsidwarf

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They're weak, rude, and stingy. Perfect storm for hated race.
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int_ua

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In previous versions of DF (pre-34.xx) - elves had a diplomat noble who would visit your fortress once you got some proper nobility. They'd mandate a tree cutting quota, and would become very upset if you broke that quota (they would also make short jokes). Currently these diplomats don't exist in vanilla...
Do I understand correctly that if I rejected the nobility part always it would have never happened?
march on into your fortress, demand that you cease your woodcutting (including the underground mushrooms that they really shouldn't even know exist), and insult you the whole way, like they're doing you a favor by it.
Is it still happening in 0.42.xx? Only after accepting some nobles or depending solely on number of your dwarves?
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int_ua

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So they did declare wars by themselves without an adequate reason. Ok, that explains, thank you for replies.
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Edward_Tohr

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In previous versions of DF (pre-34.xx) - elves had a diplomat noble who would visit your fortress once you got some proper nobility. They'd mandate a tree cutting quota, and would become very upset if you broke that quota (they would also make short jokes). Currently these diplomats don't exist in vanilla...
Do I understand correctly that if I rejected the nobility part always it would have never happened?
march on into your fortress, demand that you cease your woodcutting (including the underground mushrooms that they really shouldn't even know exist), and insult you the whole way, like they're doing you a favor by it.
Is it still happening in 0.42.xx? Only after accepting some nobles or depending solely on number of your dwarves?

It happens once you get a Baron, IIRC.

Mind you, back in the pre-.31 versions, the Baron just showed up once you met the requirements, taking a Hammerer and the economy with him. And each tree only gave one log.

... man, now I wanna spin up a 40d fort again.
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Quietust, what would we ever do without you and your endless knowledge of v0.23a?
I was going to say "fail spectacularly", but you guys seem to be doing a great job of that already.

Taffer

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I actually like the elves, goblins, and kobolds more than the dwarves.

Mostly because it's an inside community joke

This. To be blunt, most players hate elves because they read that other players hate elves. If you're searching for a better reason than that you won't find one. Any other explanation is, in my opinion, merely an attempt to justify the meme rather than explain the reasoning. There are far more annoying creatures in the game that haven't quite made it to meme status (yet?).
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 09:32:26 pm by Taffer »
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Niddhoger

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Its a combination of not taking wooden items, including things like soap (lye from ash), clear glass items (also made from trees), and objects held in wooden bins (have to meticulously select all 30 stone amulets... *sigh*) with not bringing much worth trading (wooden stuff, a little food, clothing, animals).  They never use wagons, so their supply is limited to boot.  Then there was that diplomat that prevented you from having a metal industry if you lacked coal combined with general "arrogant elves" stereotype.... Oh! And in DF elves are the only race that actively eats their kills.  Upon pillaging a town THE ELVES WILL EAT THE BODIES OF THE DEAD CIVILIANS.  They will also have horrific executions like burying people alive and feeding children to animals.  No joke, just look closely at what happens in legends mode.  All of this combined lead the community to brand elves as "dirty, backwards HIPPIES" that we mock to this day.

However, if you settled in a wood-poor region and/or need to use charcoal for fuel, the elves rock.   They bring extra wooden items like barrels, crutches, splints, boxes, cages, etc that you can cheaply buy without diverting coal from the forges (while bringing logs you CAN put in the furnace or make into beds).  You can buy seeds for aboveground crops you might want to grow, like bladeweed.  Surface crops can be grown year round, so I tend to prefer surface textiles/dye so that I can grow the two alongside each other year round.  More food diversity never hurts, either.  The pièce de résistance, though, is that they are masters at taming animals and can settle in savage lands.  Fully domesticated giant tigers can be delivered to your fortress for less than a thousand DB iirc.  Giant. WAR. Tiger. Breeding. Program.  I shouldn't have to say anything else.

So yes, the elves are useful additions to the game.  If all the races acted the same and all the merchants brought the exact same goods, things would be stale.  However, poking fun at elves is par of the community (along with savage brutality and stupidity in the name of efficiency, magma EVERYTHING, etc).  Its just a little in joke... I never seize from caravans of any race nor open fire on tavern visitors to loot their clothes/books/instruments... and I'll gladly accept elven petitions.  Unlike humans, they wear the default dwarven clothes/armor so I don't have to hit "d" and filter out their clothing piece by piece >.>
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funkydwarf

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Its role-playing the attitude of fantasy genre dwarves. Maybe a few people personally emotionally hate elves cause they are annoying in game or whatever, but most people are commenting tongue-in-cheek when typing fun ways to hate up on tree hugging, flower smelling, hoity tointy elves. Read the elf hate posts, they generally contain a joke, or silly thing,that elf-hate frames.  It provides a fun narrative. Unless you are an elf. In which case you would be happier as a dwarf living in a proper fireproof, perfectly level,  stone building.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Also Toady went against regular fantasy tropes by making elves cannibals, which only helps dwarves/players to hate them more.
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Bloax

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Also Toady went against regular fantasy tropes by making elves cannibals, which only helps dwarves/players to hate them more.
Cannibals is a strong word - I don't recall them going on hunting trips to catch livestock so that they can eat them slowly.

They don't have anything against not letting dead sentient meat go to waste though, that's true.
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oh_no

MoonyTheHuman

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Cuz they breed like rabbits https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/96018672/
What others said

Quietust

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In previous versions of DF (pre-34.xx) - elves had a diplomat noble who would visit your fortress once you got some proper nobility. ... Currently these diplomats don't exist in vanilla ...
Actually, Elven Diplomats were re-added to Vanilla in version 0.40.05.
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Putnam

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Also Toady went against regular fantasy tropes by making elves cannibals, which only helps dwarves/players to hate them more.

I don't know, cannibal woodland fae don't seem too unusual. Elder Scrolls has the exact same thing, wood elves that are cannibalistic (and, in their case, eat exclusively meat, though IIRC elves in DF eat only sentient meat, no animal meat), so it probably came from somewhere.
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