Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 14

Author Topic: Decent game...but why no graphics?  (Read 10623 times)

Tormy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I shall not pass?
    • View Profile
Decent game...but why no graphics?
« on: August 28, 2006, 03:43:00 pm »

Hello, this game is excellent, but this ASCII thing is just horrible. Why is there no graphics in this game? Making 2d graphical tiles is very easy, even a bad looking 2d sprite would be much better then this ASCII thing. Toady, when you gonna add graphics, or at least some basic graphics engine, so the players can create the graphics themselves. Take a look at Wesnoth.
http://www.wesnoth.org/

Another free game with thousands of players, and the players are making all the graphics for that game, and it looks very good now. It had some bad graphics when it was started but now its decent even graphically.

Logged

UncleSporky

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2006, 03:48:00 pm »

Toady and many of us grew up on games that look like Dwarf Fortress.  He has said that graphics are not a priority until he's absolutely convinced that the game cannot be accurately represented with ASCII, and I am inclined to agree with him.  Some of us like to use our imagination.

Although that didn't stop me from hammering out some basic things like beds.   :p  Really, it's a low priority though.  The game is awesome as it is.

[ August 28, 2006: Message edited by: UncleSporky ]

Logged

Tormy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I shall not pass?
    • View Profile
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2006, 03:55:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by UncleSporky:
<STRONG>Toady and many of us grew up on games that look like Dwarf Fortress.  He has said that graphics are not a priority until he's absolutely convinced that the game cannot be accurately represented with ASCII, and I am inclined to agree with him.  Some of us like to use our imagination.

Although that didn't stop me from hammering out some basic things like beds.    :)
Like I said, Toady wont have to make any graphics at all, just add a graphics engine, and WE the players will make the graphics.

Logged

dav

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2006, 04:07:00 pm »

Personally, it doesn't make any difference to me.  In fact, I think tiles are a bit tough to do well; given the choice between ADOM/nethack tilesets and ASCII, I always play the latter.  

I'd rather see more gameplay than better graphics, but that's just me.  I can understand why people would want something a bit more dynamic.

Logged

Tormy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I shall not pass?
    • View Profile
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2006, 04:11:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by dav:
<STRONG>Personally, it doesn't make any difference to me.  In fact, I think tiles are a bit tough to do well; given the choice between ADOM/nethack tilesets and ASCII, I always play the latter.  

I'd rather see more gameplay than better graphics, but that's just me.  I can understand why people would want something a bit more dynamic.</STRONG>


Well, this game already contains a deeper gameplay then most of the games. I think it should be time now to add a graphics engine, and after that continue to develop the gameplay elements.

Guys please, its not that I hate ASCII. It has nothing to do with the fact that the date is 2006, and we have an ASCII "graphics" based game. I dont care about these things....but the game is absolutely confusing because everything is made from letters and ascii symbols...a nice and clean plain 2d graphical game would be much more user friendly, and much more people could enjoy playing the game.

Logged

Phssthpok

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2006, 04:28:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>the game is absolutely confusing because everything is made from letters and ascii symbols.</STRONG>

Try turning off varied ground tiles and decorating with statues instead of engravings. Then it is no longer confusing.  :D

Logged

Zaratustra

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • http://zarat.us/
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2006, 04:35:00 pm »

except when you can't tell a cat apart from a chimpanzee.

Toady One

  • The Great
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bay12games.com
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2006, 05:01:00 pm »

We discussed on reason briefly in the FAQ.  Also, it's not as easy as you think to add tile support.  Dwarves was written solely for PDCurses and was in that state for more than two years.  OpenGL support was added only in January of last year (mainly for input reasons, since Curses input is iffy), and it simply copies the Curses display.  There's a lot of hard-coded 80x25 assumptions, and also the fact that Curses displays one tile per cell is very important.  Having things like a dwarf standing on a floor requires at least two tiles being displayed in the same cell, which requires the code to think differently about many things.  It's not impossible, but it's time-consuming.
Logged
The Toad, a Natural Resource:  Preserve yours today!

Dehydration

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2006, 05:05:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>
Guys please, its not that I hate ASCII. It has nothing to do with the fact that the date is 2006, and we have an ASCII "graphics" based game. I dont care about these things....</STRONG>

Then don't bring it up, because no one else did. Bringing it up and then saying it doesn't matter to you is just a weak-ass way of sliding points in that you didn't want to take responsibility for but that you thought someone might still agree with.


quote:
<STRONG>
but the game is absolutely confusing because everything is made from letters and ascii symbols...a nice and clean plain 2d graphical game would be much more user friendly, and much more people could enjoy playing the game.</STRONG>

The game is complex. The game can be confusing. They're different things, complex and confusing, and one of them depends on the person playing the game.

While I do agree that graphics are usually more user-friendly in the absolute sense, dropping into an alpha-phase dev board and arguing that a game you show very little indication of having played should look entirely different despite the answers already given by the devs in the FAQ linked at the top of the forum .. well, that's just pretty darn silly, regardless of whether 2D tilesets are friendlier.

Logged
 shouldn''t trust the phones. They''re full of gas.

Tormy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I shall not pass?
    • View Profile
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2006, 05:15:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>We discussed on reason briefly in the FAQ.  Also, it's not as easy as you think to add tile support.  Dwarves was written solely for PDCurses and was in that state for more than two years.  OpenGL support was added only in January of last year (mainly for input reasons, since Curses input is iffy), and it simply copies the Curses display.  There's a lot of hard-coded 80x25 assumptions, and also the fact that Curses displays one tile per cell is very important.  Having things like a dwarf standing on a floor requires at least two tiles being displayed in the same cell, which requires the code to think differently about many things.  It's not impossible, but it's time-consuming.</STRONG>


Toady, is there any plans to add 2d tile support sometime? I think that most of the players would prefer 2d over ASCII.

*edit* I just read the FAQ. It looks like that you will add graphics support later on.


Dehydration - Sorry, but I dont want to comment your offensive and nonsense reply.
 :)

[ August 28, 2006: Message edited by: Tormy ]

Logged

Kjoery

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2006, 05:38:00 pm »

Being a roguelike fan, I love the graphics, and if I had to choose between symbols which make me imagine what the object looks like rahter than pictures which force the appearance and proportion of an object; when I look at a ASCII log & dwarf I have no problem, but if I look at an imaged log & dwarf, suddenly, the log is out of proportion with the dwarf, which ruins it for me.

Oh, and Today, if it does switch to graphics, keep an ASCII graphics option, please.

Logged

Tormy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I shall not pass?
    • View Profile
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2006, 05:42:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Kjoery:
<STRONG>Being a roguelike fan, I love the graphics, and if I had to choose between symbols which make me imagine what the object looks like rahter than pictures which force the appearance and proportion of an object; when I look at a ASCII log & dwarf I have no problem, but if I look at an imaged log & dwarf, suddenly, the log is out of proportion with the dwarf, which ruins it for me.

Oh, and Today, if it does switch to graphics, keep an ASCII graphics option, please.</STRONG>


You forgot the most important thing. YOU could make own graphics for the game, once the graphics engine would be in. Then you would be able to see your imaginations.
 :)

Logged

Rollory

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2006, 05:51:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>*edit* I just read the FAQ. It looks like that you will add graphics support later on. </STRONG>

"might"

Fact is, the game doesn't _need_ any changes to the graphics at this stage.  Sure it would make it easier to get random people to play it, but the point right now is developing the basic underlying engine.  What is there works fine for that purpose - and for whatever it's worth, at this point I think I prefer the characters to graphics.

Anyway, graphics are an overlay; they're an interface issue.  They don't (shouldn't) affect the underlying game mechanics, which is where this game's strengths are.  Also there's tons of other things I'd worry about as regards the interface (standardizing all those commands, making various screens easily accessible, summarizing information better) before worrying at all about graphics.

quote:
<STRONG>
Dehydration - Sorry, but I dont want to comment your offensive and nonsense reply.
  :)
</STRONG>

FYI, that smiley makes you look like more of a jerk, not less.  He said nothing offensive and nothing nonsensical, just the plain truth.

Logged

Virtz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2006, 05:59:00 pm »

It's also very problematic as to how things would be presented. I doubt anyone is able to fit a 7 headed beast like the hydra in a single tile. And I wouldn't like hydras to be presented as a normal dragon - a solution used in Nethack(which only causes more confusion) and the reason why I hate graphical Gearhead. Also, not sure about this, but there's supposebly a creature generator feature planned for the future. In order to properly present randomly generated creatures, DF would require procedural programming worthy of Will Wright's Spore or even better.

In the end, I like DF as it is and setting graphics as a priority would slow down development on the more important features like the ability to spit in someone's eyes. :P

Also, I'd like to see this majority craving for 2d tiles you're talking about. The majority I see here appears to be fine with ASCII. :S

Logged

Tormy

  • Bay Watcher
  • I shall not pass?
    • View Profile
Re: Decent game...but why no graphics?
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2006, 06:07:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Rollory:
<STRONG>

FYI, that smiley makes you look like more of a jerk, not less.  He said nothing offensive and nothing nonsensical, just the plain truth.</STRONG>



Actually he did. Read that weak ass complaint part of his moronic reply.

I know some people [the people who introduced this game to me], and they all agree on this part, that this game will need some 2d based graphics sooner or later.
One more thing. Just because no players are posting about this, it doesnt means that they dont want graphics instead of ASCII.
ASCII is the simplest way to introduce a game to the public. Thankfully the FAQ thread pointed it out, that it wouldnt be too good to add graphics support in alpha stage, and I agree with that. However later on, graphics will be a must have.

One more thing dear "jerk".
RANDOM people are playing this game. I never played roguelike, and my friends who are playing this game are also never played any roguelike games. Most of the players found the infos about this game on other gaming forums. This is why there are much more posters on these forums now then before.

[ August 28, 2006: Message edited by: Tormy ]

Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 14