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[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Derek:
<STRONG>I think it's kind of silly to argue one way or the other!  Some people prefer ASCII, some prefer graphical tiles... so it has been and so it shall be until the end of time.    

   

To start: just a couple of dwarfs in a cave with some rocks.

I'll keep expanding on this scene as I find time (and also as I get to know the game a little better).  What do you think, though?</STRONG>

This is exactly what Im talking about. The images on your little screenshot are much better then the ASCII symbols. No confusion, you can clearly see what is what, without thinking that "Hm now what is this Æ stuff? Do I remember correctly? Lets move the cursor over it so that I can be sure about it."
Graphic tiles like these could be a good start.
I know that this game is very far from beta even. All I wanted to say it that once the game is stable enough and Toady feels that he added all major parts what he wanted, he will work on a 2d tile based engine.
Im pretty sure that the game can keep ASCII and implent 2d tiles as well. So everyone will be happy.

[ August 29, 2006: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[Capntastic]

Another problem in Fort mode is that these guys , being 2d non-animated images, are going to look really lame moving around and 'doing' things without being animated.  That adds a further step of complication that wouldn't come up with a conventional roguelike, further making everything a large hassle and somewhat unreasonable until the game is all baked, cooled, and ready to accept icing.

[UncleSporky]

quote:Originally posted by Capntastic:
<STRONG>Another problem in Fort mode is that these guys , being 2d non-animated images, are going to look really lame moving around and 'doing' things without being animated.  That adds a further step of complication that wouldn't come up with a conventional roguelike, further making everything a large hassle and somewhat unreasonable until the game is all baked, cooled, and ready to accept icing.</STRONG>

Right.  Are the 2D graphics going to still have a dwarf flashing rock to show he's carrying it, or are you going to actually draw him carrying it?  How far do you take it?  Obviously doesn't look as good if it's just alternating between sprites, and "looking good" is the reason for graphics anyway.

[ravensword227]

quote:Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>but this ASCII thing is just horrible.</STRONG>

I respectfully disagree.  I thought the same thing too - at first - though.  The world was a bunch of chicken scratch.  Quite honestly, I would not have given this game a chance if it were not for all the positive feedback, even though I play WinNethack (with graphics tiles).  

BUT now that I'm used to it, everything is not only familiar, my mind fills in the lack of graphics as it were a novel; I can see the action.  Sprites (graphics) would limit that, imho.  It also feels nostalgic like an old DOS game.

So, if graphics tiles are implemented, thats cool and all.  I might even prefer that.  I dunno.  BUT I still hope for the option of playing the latest version of Slaves To Armok the ASCII graphics.

[odd2k]

Tormy, by demanding the people (person) developing this game to make graphics when they already stated it is not a priority, you come off as a somewhat lazy and demanding person. I could understand if you were asking for the possiblity to create your own graphics (which at the time is severely limited). But asking him to make it for you? Remember there is but one person coding this game, and he really needs to prioritize things to get anything done.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by odd2k:
<STRONG>Tormy, by demanding the people (person) developing this game to make graphics when they already stated it is not a priority, you come off as a somewhat lazy and demanding person. I could understand if you were asking for the possiblity to create your own graphics (which at the time is severely limited). But asking him to make it for you? Remember there is but one person coding this game, and he really needs to prioritize things to get anything done.</STRONG>

no no no no....I am asking for a graphic engine, not for tile graphic! I mentioned that the best would be to make it in the "wesnoth way", where WE the players are making all the graphics for the game. This could work for DF also. Fans could make the 2d tiles and share it to the others.

[Rollory]

The engine is the part that takes the work.

As for Derek's tiles, that you like so much - see, _I_ look at that graphic and I think it looks simply terrible.  Amateurish.  Dinky.  Something some third-grader came up with.  (Derek: sorry to bust your balloons here; wouldn't have commented at all except to make the following point)  It makes the game look like a half-assed RPG Maker derivative.  A look like that, if it was the official look, would actively discourage me from paying any attention to the game.

Bad graphics are worse than none.

If _any_ graphics engine is implemented for this game, it needs to be at LEAST an Ultima-style isometric engine.  Anything less wouldn't do it justice.  And an engine like that takes a LOT of work.

[ravensword227]

quote:Originally posted by Rollory:
<STRONG>
As for Derek's tiles, that you like so much - see, _I_ look at that graphic and I think it looks simply terrible.  Amateurish.  Dinky.  Something some third-grader came up with.  (Derek: sorry to bust your balloons here; wouldn't have commented at all except to make the following point)  It makes the game look like a half-assed RPG Maker derivative.  A look like that, if it was the official look, would actively discourage me from paying any attention to the game.

Bad graphics are worse than none.</STRONG>

Thats harsh, dude.  It looks pretty good to me; however, I'd hate to not have the human town bloat or wizard tower bloat (and other cool features) because of graphics tiles.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Rollory:
<STRONG>The engine is the part that takes the work.

As for Derek's tiles, that you like so much - see, _I_ look at that graphic and I think it looks simply terrible.  Amateurish.  Dinky.  Something some third-grader came up with.  (Derek: sorry to bust your balloons here; wouldn't have commented at all except to make the following point)  It makes the game look like a half-assed RPG Maker derivative.  A look like that, if it was the official look, would actively discourage me from paying any attention to the game.

Bad graphics are worse than none.

If _any_ graphics engine is implemented for this game, it needs to be at LEAST an Ultima-style isometric engine.  Anything less wouldn't do it justice.  And an engine like that takes a LOT of work.</STRONG>

I dont agree, 2d top-down style would be perfect. Also it would be the simplest to add I guess. There are plenty of games out there with this system with very good quality graphics. Like I said players could make own graphics for the game. [Once again: Wesnoth.]

Take a look at this 2d tile based Wesnoth Screenshot:

This kind of graphics would be excellent for DF also.

[ravensword227]

^^^
In all honesty, if the game had cartoony graphics like that, I don't know that I would be able to keep a straight face when an arm or leg got slashed off; however, I respect your position.

EDIT: Maybe you should just give the game more time.  Seriously, I thought it looked like crap too at first but, now that my mind is adjusted, I understand things at a glance.

[ August 29, 2006: Message edited by: ravensword227 ]

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by ravensword227:
<STRONG>^^^
In all honesty, if the game had cartoony graphics like that, I don't know that I would be able to keep a straight face when an arm or leg got slashed off; however, I respect your position.</STRONG>

....this is one style [cartoony or not] what Wesnoth is using. We could make any kind and style of 2d graphics for DF also.
Shees you are complaining about cartoony graphics when we got ASCII here? You cant be serious!    

raven. I also understand the game now, I have no serious problems with ASCII now to understand, but this isnt means that we wont need graphics. Graphics would improve the overall quality of the game a lot.

[ August 29, 2006: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by UncleSporky:
<STRONG>
Right.  Are the 2D graphics going to still have a dwarf flashing rock to show he's carrying it, or are you going to actually draw him carrying it?  How far do you take it?  Obviously doesn't look as good if it's just alternating between sprites, and "looking good" is the reason for graphics anyway.</STRONG>

Exactly.  There's so many things that go on in DF that there'd be no way to make sprites for them all, and half-assing it by doing alternating sprites to imply things are being done just defeats the purpose of 'needing pretty pictures to understand what's going on'.

And re-coding the way graphics work entirely just seems like the total opposite of what Senator Toady has planned at this stage.  

FINAL NOTE:  Read the development notes before suggesting something that is mentioned in them.

[AlStar]

Why are you so stuck on Wesnoth, anyway?

You do realize that this game and that game are two entirely different beasts, right?

Wesnoth is a turn based strategy game. The units need animations for attacking, defending and dying. That's it. Some of them have walking animations, but honestly, most of those that have them are pretty cruddy.

DF is a real time simulation, more in line with Serf City/The Settlers or Dungeon Keeper. The little dwarves are constantly moving around, drinking, eating, fighting, carrying stuff, etc, etc, etc, etc.  The sprites for such a thing are an entire order of magnitude more complex than those used in Wesnoth.

Honestly, if we're going to upgrade the graphics engine (beyond something 'easy', like upping the number of unique characters) it should go to a full 3d, so that we can actually see our little dwarves getting chunks ripped off them when a grimeling wanders into our fort.

But you know what? In the end, it doesn't matter because graphics are just fluff. Period.

It's the game underneath that's important. If some people can't see the game because of the graphics, well, that's too bad, isn't it? I won't miss 'em.

[Virtz]

You know what would look like absolute crap? A dwarf standing next to his severed leg whence his character is intact. That, or a hydra standing next to 2 of it's severed heads whence still having all 7.

The thing about ASCII is that it only presents us with the character's position and a small hint as to what it is. It doesn't tell us how exactly that character looks and what he's wearing. That's left to our imagination based on their description and inventory.

Wesnoth is easy to properly present with graphics due to the units having pre-defined equipment, which cannot be changed in-game and lack of limb severing.

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by Virtz:
<STRONG>
The thing about ASCII is that it only presents us with the character's position and a small hint as to what it is. It doesn't tell us how exactly that character looks and what he's wearing. That's left to our imagination based on their description and inventory. </STRONG>

And if you're ever confused, you can always pause for as long as you need to check things out!  Adventure-mode and Dwarf Fort aren't twitch games.   You can take your time and weigh things out.