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[jme]

Fancy graphics are kind of pointless for the reasons discussed here. But what I'd really like to see is an optional mouse-based interface on top of the game. I imagine this is difficult for the same reasons as adding tile support, but it'd be really nice to mouse around on the map. Think of the squad command screen - it'd be really cool if you could click to select soldiers and drag out patrols for them to follow.

[PhilD]

Now, I played a lot of Nethack (back when it didn't have tiles), Angband (both when it was still Moria, and later), and the like, so I'm not bothered by ASCII - and, as someone pointed out, a D can be as scary as it gets (only, be careful when switching roguelikes - and "d" changes from representing your puppy to a young dragon).

But then, there's the question of screen readability. When playing, I don't recognise the difference on-screen between a workshop and another workshop - so, since I'm still discovering the game and not planning my fortress layout too well, I'm always lost when I need to find a specific workshop. Using more customized characters could make the screen much more readable.

Now, for what is "needed", or even what "we the players" can build - DF is made, for their own reasons, by two people. Nothing is "needed" but what they want to put in it. And  since they decided not to release it as free software - their completely legitimate decision, even though I'm have made a different one if I had one percent of their talent and dedication, which I don't - there isn't much that one can do to "help". Wesnoth works differently, and tries to appeal to a different crowd (I happen to sit in both, but again, that means nothing), under a completely different development model. Apples and oranges...

[Insalubrious]

Just hopping in to say it would be awesome to have a user customizable set of tiles.  I've been playing this since SA informed me of it and it's the only problem I have with the game so far.  I know it's in alpha so if this ever does happen it'll be sometime in the distant future, but it would definately open up some doors to people that would love to help improve the game in whatever way possible.  More manpower = even quicker development = cuter dwarves in a more sensible environment.  Graphics most definately appeal to the vast majority of game players and would only increase interest (and donations) to the game and would make it more popular, faster.  That said, I'm still playing it as-is with my fingers crossed, and loving it.  

[Quiller]

I agree with Phil here, I'm not scared by ASCII graphics, but I also can't tell at a glance where my Mason Workshop is compared to my Wood Furnace compared to my Ashery.  This isn't because of ASCII though, since there isn't much straight ASCII besides the ground and the animals.  I do understand Toady wanting to get the engine, features and object list settled before spending a lot of time on graphics, though, and it is certainly playable now.

In any case, most of us are not part of Bay 12 Games.  We are not developers, we are Alpha testers, so it is probably worthwhile for us to learn to phrase requests politely.  And they should probably be put in the suggestions forum if we are more interested in giving a suggestion to Toady than in provoking debate among fellow forumites.

[Raerlynn]

Tormy, I'm saying this once:

Tile graphics are implemented. They're simply constrained to 80x25. If you think you can make art look that good, go for it.

Meanwhile, this game is in alpha. As in, all the features are not currently implemented. Which is more important on a car? That it looks good, or that it runs reliably with all the advertised add-ins?

I agree that while having a better graphic engine is nice, I'd rather he get feature coding done first, and looking great done second. The fact that Wesnoth did it is irrelevent. Wesnoth had 12, count them, 12 people. We have 2. So it's not happening. Drop the subject. The answer isn't changing.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Insalubrious:
<STRONG>Just hopping in to say it would be awesome to have a user customizable set of tiles.  I've been playing this since SA informed me of it and it's the only problem I have with the game so far.  I know it's in alpha so if this ever does happen it'll be sometime in the distant future, but it would definately open up some doors to people that would love to help improve the game in whatever way possible.  More manpower = even quicker development = cuter dwarves in a more sensible environment.  Graphics most definately appeal to the vast majority of game players and would only increase interest (and donations) to the game and would make it more popular, faster.  That said, I'm still playing it as-is with my fingers crossed, and loving it.    </STRONG>

This is what I am talking about. Finally someone understood it.

Guys, I never said that "Ok Toady, work on the gfx engine now, and make the graphics yourself immediately."
That would be moronic to ask for. The game is in alfa. Toady wants to implent many more new stuff and fix bugs. We all understand that those are the most important things. However later on, when these are done, the devs should start to work on the graphics engine to make the game better and more user friendly. Also, modding is a powerful thing. When the players are able to make their own gfx, their own monster images, their own little world, that is very charming. Not to mention that we all could help Toady a lot, in fact, basically we the players could make all the gfx what would be implented to the final game. Players who wouldnt like it, they could have 2 chance. 1. Play ASCII, 2. Make their own gfx.

[Virtz]

Even if the devs DO decide to create some advanced graphics engine in 2 years (earliest) when the primary features are done, mind explaining how the graphics would look? I can't imagine how you'd address the issues I've mentioned with any 2d tiles.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Virtz:
<STRONG>Even if the devs DO decide to create some advanced graphics engine in 2 years (earliest) when the primary features are done, mind explaining how the graphics would look? I can't imagine how you'd address the issues I've mentioned with any 2d tiles.</STRONG>

What issues? I will answer to everything.

[Derek]

Well, here's my next and last image.  I added some more stuff, including detailed walls/floors.  I also animated it so you can see what it may look like if a dwarf is carrying something.  (An alternative would be to just place the rock on top of the dwarf - that actually looks like he's holding it!)

I thought it might be interesting to play around with some graphic tiles, but I've lost any steam to do more right now.

quote:As for Derek's tiles, that you like so much - see, _I_ look at that graphic and I think it looks simply terrible. Amateurish. Dinky. Something some third-grader came up with.

If I'm just going to be made an example of (why graphics suck), then that's no fun.  I don't think the graphics I did are quite at a third grader's level.  At least fourth, dammit!

I agree that the graphics in Wesnoth are far too large for a Roguelike (and they're rather unclean, also).  I'm not really sure I understand why having small scale pixel graphics is that much different from ASCII.  It's a tiny step up in detail and a big step up in readability.  You can do all the things that are done with ASCII currently (including flipping tiles) and the effect would be the same.  (And not to mention the fact that, if a graphical tileset were ever implemented, it'd be OPTIONAL and probably not even default.)

Anyway, I'm clearly a fish out of water here, so I'll slip away and just keep lurking.  Adios!

[Tormy]

Derek nice first try. This graphics what you made is already much better, clearer and lot more user friendly then ASCII, and this can be upgraded a lot. Talented artists could make awesome tiles for everything.

[ August 29, 2006: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[Arnos]

I vote we replace the ASCII with Derek's tiles, if it won't slow dev time to much that is.  I admit that at first I was for ASCII but after seeing Derek's tiles I think they would work much better.

[ August 29, 2006: Message edited by: Arnos ]

[bbb]

nothing stops you from playing around with the current tiles

i believe i've seen a screenshot somewhere with altered "pretty" graphics

alpha tester/beta tester is such a self-important title.. how many of us are actually testing rather than playing?

me? i'm playing.

[Citizen of Erl]

Derek's graphics don't work very well for me, The dwarves look too cartoony. I am curious to see how you address the severed limb and many changes of clothing/armor/weapon issue, though.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Citizen of Erl:
<STRONG>Derek's graphics don't work very well for me, The dwarves look too cartoony. I am curious to see how you address the severed limb and many changes of clothing/armor/weapon issue, though.</STRONG>

You can make images about dwarves without a leg, dont you? Or just place a small icon above the tile that the character lost a limb, or there are other ways to solve this problem. If you dont like Derek's graphics, make your own, when there will be a point to make graphics for the game...but I guess there will be many different graphics for all tiles sooner or later after we can use the user made graphics.

[ August 29, 2006: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>
Guys, I never said that "Ok Toady, work on the gfx engine now, and make the graphics yourself immediately."
That would be moronic to ask for. </STRONG>

Using the magic of the internet, I go back to your opening post:

quote:Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>
Hello, this game is excellent, but this ASCII thing is just horrible. Why is there no graphics in this game? Making 2d graphical tiles is very easy, even a bad looking 2d sprite would be much better then this ASCII thing. Toady, when you gonna add graphics, or at least some basic graphics engine, so the players can create the graphics themselves. Take a look at Wesnoth.

Another free game with thousands of players, and the players are making all the graphics for that game, and it looks very good now. It had some bad graphics when it was started but now its decent even graphically.  </STRONG>

So, you're not explicitly asking Toady to change gears and work on the least important part of the game; you're just complaining that the game looks terrible and Toady should be overhauling the graphics engine.  I see.  You're trying to change the way you came off in the opening post as apposed to apologizing for your harshness and neglect to read the development notes.  

Knowing your intentions, I take this as an apology, and an understanding that you will not complain about graphics until, like I said, the game is baked, cooled, and ready for icing.  I accept your apology, Tormy.