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Author Topic: Training the melee dwarves  (Read 1817 times)

Mlittle

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2008, 05:18:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Untelligent:
<STRONG>Wrestling is important because it determines dodging ability.</STRONG>

It is certainly important in battle, but in training, as Uniman said, if dwarfs dodge everything while training, they can hardly train other skills and dabbling wrestlers give an occasional spinal injury.
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bluescoots

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2008, 08:58:00 pm »

Now, I'm not sure if I remember it correctly, but I believe that you can make wooden weapons in the craft workshop.

I might be wrong though.

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Lyrax

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2008, 12:37:00 am »

I would rather have a few dwarves who can dodge or block anything thrown at them than have two dozen dwarves with high weapon skills.  I train wrestling because dodging is so important to me.
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Haedrian

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2008, 02:37:00 am »

Very good tip: Never give steel weapons to recruits.

My fortress had 5 injured people, including an elite wrestler... out of a 15 unit military.

All of them sparring injuries *shudder*

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Footkerchief

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2008, 04:46:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by bluescoots:
<STRONG>Now, I'm not sure if I remember it correctly, but I believe that you can make wooden weapons in the craft workshop.

I might be wrong though.</STRONG>


No.  You can make wooden weapon racks, and I think the word "rack" tends to get cut off.  You can buy wooden weapons from elves sometimes, though.

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kynalvarus

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2008, 05:30:00 pm »

I'm a DF newb, and in my first attempt to make Hammerdwarves 3 of 4 had nerve damage within a month. All were at least Wrestlers, all were wearing middling-decent chain and wearing shields, but I think they used the iron hammers on eachother.

As a result, I have questions about this topic.

1) How can you force your dwarves to use wood/silver weapons when training and iron/steel when really fighting? Do you have to set them unarmed, wait for them to disarm, then forbid the weapons you don't want them to use, then set them armed again? Is there a better way?

1a) If you set up your stockpiles so that wood/silver weapons are in one set of bins and iron/steel are in the other, can you just forbid the bins to get dwarves to use the right weapons?

Suggestion: Maybe this should be a function of weapon racks? Give one to any dwarf who you expect to need to switch weapons frequently, and attach a menu to it to change the preferred weapon?

2) Will all off-duty soldier dwarves spar with each other indiscriminately, or will they stick to sparring with squad mates?

3) If you assign a soldier to a particular barracks bed, or to a weaponrack/armorstand barracks, will they only go there to train? Could this be used to segregate recruits from veterans?

4) What level of helmet/cap/(low|high) boots goes with chainmail? With platemail?

Thanks,
Kyn

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Samyotix

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2008, 05:44:00 pm »

Hmm, I'm not that much of an expert myself but I'll try:

1. Maybe you could set the steel weapons they're wielding to be Dumped. A dwarf should then take the weapon off the guy, and he should go find a new one.

I've done this with marksdwarves' bolts (to prevent them from facing a siege with a stack of 2 iron bolts), and the bolts got taken out of the quivers and dumped.

Haven' tried with wielded weapons yet, though. Also I doubt this is much quicker than setting the guy to unarmed - you'd have to wait for a dwarf with a Dump Item task to show up. [1]

1a-3 not sure enough to answer.

4.  http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Armor#Armor_Levels


[1] Also you want to dump steel weapons somewhere you can retrieve them from  :) So don't if you use a chasm. [My dump zone is next to the craftsdwarves' workshops - I mostly dump stone anyway, and it's more space efficient than a stone stockpile.]

[ April 15, 2008: Message edited by: Samyotix ]

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Troas

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2008, 10:28:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Footkerchief:
<STRONG>

No.  You can make wooden weapon racks, and I think the word "rack" tends to get cut off.  You can buy wooden weapons from elves sometimes, though.</STRONG>


Actually bluescoots is correct about making swords in a craftsdwarf shop - wood/obsidian swords, which is one of your few choices for weapons if you don't have access to metal.  However such swords are as damaging as steel, so they aren't very good for training.  Stick with silver, copper, or elf-made weapons for training.  

Kynalvarus - there is no really good way.  However here's what I do:

1 armory (re: weapon stockpile with a lockable door) for silver/copper weapons
1 armory for iron/steel weapons.  Normally this door is kept locked.
1 crossbow stockpile in the hall between the armory doors

All uninjured dwarves are in one squad.  Brain/spine injured dwarves are in one or two dedicated marksdwarf squad(s).  
In peacetime: all dwarves stand down to train, perhaps keep a couple of marksdwarves on duty against ambushes.  Injured dwarves always wield crossbows.  Recruits train wrestling without a shield.  Wrestlers train hammer/shield.  Hammerdwarves train marksmanship.  Marksdwarves train wrestling.

In peacetime the iron/steel armory is kept locked, and dwarves pull from the open silver/copper armory.  When a siege hits I briefly set all melee dwarves to crossbow.  They will drop their weapons.  If I have time I wait for them to be stored in the silver armory.  If not I pause and forbid the dropped weapons.  Then I lock the silver armory unlock the steel armory and let the melee dwarves rearm.

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I3erent

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2008, 11:58:00 pm »

What we need is sparring dummies like in the kung fu movies when the dudes are hitting the wooden posts with pegs sticking out.....
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BurnedToast

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2008, 01:26:00 am »

Your quote from Toady seems to be accurate - I've thrown raw recruits in with legendary++ champions with masterwork adamantine weapons and they don't get splattered or anything. They also train REALLY fast (I'm talking, peasant to legendary champion in 3 months or less fast). This is one of those myths that everyone believes and never tests and just won't die.

I also don't train wrestling first, mostly because shield use is WAY WAY better then wrestling, and wrestling will go up on it's own eventually. I don't think high level wrestling makes them train slower though, like I said my recruits trained up FAST vs my legendary+ wrestler/shield dwarves.

The 'old' way you list is still what I do, though lately I don't bother with silver/wood weapons and just give them steel straight off - who cares if a few soap makers and fish dissectors get decapitated while training? You get more (even if you don't want them) for free anyway.

I don't know for sure about toughness, it does help a LOT with not dying but I don't know if that's due to damage resistance or just the ability to take more hits (sort of like more 'hitpoints' per limb/organ). I suspect it's the latter, but I really don't know how to test it.

Edit: oh great, now I raised a zombie thread. I need to be more careful with which tab I have open. sorry.

[ May 31, 2008: Message edited by: BurnedToast ]

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umiman

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2008, 04:14:00 am »

It's okay, there's a lot of useful information you have there. I'll test out the adamantine weapon vs untrained freshmeat and see how it goes.

Brent Not Broken

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2008, 08:53:00 am »

Okay, I've got a question about practice weapons for sparring: does the quality of a weapon's craftsdwarfship affect sparring injury rates, or should I just be worried about the material it's made from?

I'm curious about whether I should melt down any spare ≡silver battle axes≡ and have them reforged into silver battle axes.

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MuonDecay

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2008, 10:40:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Silveron:
<STRONG>Wooden weapons are currently bought from the elves. I smile everytime I have recruits training with -Rubber Tree Swords-.</STRONG>

I smile even more because in the ever so cautious process of training speardwarves, they're usually poking at each other with morbidly ornate thrice-decorated feather tree spears that are more valuable than the real poke-sticks they graduate to when they stop being bungling morons.

quote:
Originally posted by Brent Not Broken:
<STRONG>Okay, I've got a question about practice weapons for sparring: does the quality of a weapon's craftsdwarfship affect sparring injury rates, or should I just be worried about the material it's made from?

I'm curious about whether I should melt down any spare ≡silver battle axes≡ and have them reforged into silver battle axes.</STRONG>


Quality should not affect chances of an injury, but will affect damage when a dangerous strike occurs, hence why people use wood or silver since damage is heavily nerfed.

So if that's your concern, obviously you'll ideally want to be giving them silver weapons that look like they were forged by a drunk 2-year-old.

[ June 01, 2008: Message edited by: MuonDecay ]

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InquisitiveIdiot

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Re: Training the melee dwarves
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2008, 02:00:00 pm »

I'm a fan of meleedwarf-only defenses, and I've heavily boosted goblin sieges in my version.  As a result, I've stabilized on what I think is a fairly effective training regimen.

The military qualities I find most desirable:

  • Speed - With goblin sieges beginning in winter of the first year my supply of war dogs dwindle rapidly, and I'd best have some elites at least by late second year.  This largely translates to "resist the temptation to train pump/siege operating."
  • Readiness - I generally don't do traps, and I play on small maps.  If my dwarves aren't already combat-ready when the goblins arrive, they *might* catch the second or third cluster.  The first will already be attacking my war dogs and civvies.
  • Robustness - Training injuries should be reduced as much as possible.
  • Simplicity - Gentlemen, I am lazy.  Sure, I could forbid each weapon individually, or lock them in weapon traps, but any solution that involves constantly nursemaiding my little thugs is not a viable one for me.
With that in mind,

The Idiot's Guide to Dorfy Fightan

Theory: Wrestling dwarves of all competency can play nice together, and train quickly since they deal low damage.  Weapons novices with mid-high armor and shield skill will be alright together as well - but not with the novice wrestlers!  Champions can be freely given super steel weapons; they won't seriously injure each other, but will MURDER the previous categories.

Step 1 - bring a proficient armorsmith.  Live outside for a year or so, using your miners to mine iron and any coal/set up magma forges.  Churn out iron plate - steel takes too long.  Your goal is seven full sets by your first wave of immigrants.  Offer extra goods to the caravan to jumpstart immigration.  Magnetite mugs work, or any more precious metals you might have found.

If heavy goblin sieges are also attracted by the offered goods, proceed to shit yourself.  Worst I've had was four local lords paying me a visit in spring of the second year.

Step 2 - Pick seven dwarves from your first wave, make them wrestlers with shields and full plate.  They will train wrestling, armor and shield, all vital combat skills.  Let them practice.  Make more armor, recruit more dwarves.  If you have more fodder than armor, set some pumping to give them some use and mark them for later recruitment.  Occasionally swap out those with nervous injuries for fresh recruits.

If goblins attack in this stage, it's manageable.  Try to sync your counterattack with the loose war dogs to concentrate the numbers on your side.

Step 3 - once you have a few elite or near-elite wrestlers, forge some crude iron weapons.  Carve out a simple 4x4 or 5x5 room:

code:

#######
#.....#
#.....####
#B.....F.D
#.....####
#.....#
#######

B = weapons rack, make a barracks
F = food/drink drop, via hole from above
D = Door, locked



Squad your elites, toggle the weapons on, station them in the room.  Wait for them all to march in and lock the door, then stand them down.  They should immediately begin sparring.  A lot.  Meanwhile, the rest of your wrestling military will continue sparring relatively unmolested.

Should the goblins attack at this point, unlock the door and order them in.  You might lose one or two to goblin spearmasters, but in general the iron weaponry will be enough to clean house.

Step 4 - When you have a number of legendary weapon/armor/shield users, upgrading their weapons will make them into unstoppable death machines.  Construct a room similar to the above, with an extra weapons stockpile off to the side.  Set the stockpile to hold only the best of what you have, and wait for it to be stocked.  Set the champions to wrestling so they'll drop their weapons.  March them in, lock the door, and reassign weapons.

For bonus points, place a rotating bridge trap above the room and drop invaders directly into the middle of your champions.  Otherwise when a siege comes, just laugh and unlock the door.

[ June 01, 2008: Message edited by: InquisitiveIdiot ]

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