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[Vector]

-snip-

[Truean]

Right, hence several warnings in last post.

Also that's just meditation. The opposite of that "rooting" and awareness can help quite a bit to center yourself and keep things in perspective / organized.

[Robot Parade Leader]

What do you do with people who are "just saying?" As in, "I'm just saying." That's usually what they say after they've said something either incredibly stupid, offensive, wrong or who knows. Like, they can just say whatever they want AND expect everyone else to love it no matter how bad it is.

I've asked them not to and they then get all huffy, or accuse me of being agitated for asking, and explain why they are saying what they are saying. I don't care. I'm asking, begging this person to stop it and they just won't. Meanwhile they want to talk and not me. Because if I'm talking, that means they won't be able to without talking over top of me, which they will absolutely do, while saying or implying that I should stop being rude and shut up.

[Tiruin]

What do you do with people who are "just saying?" As in, "I'm just saying." That's usually what they say after they've said something either incredibly stupid, offensive, wrong or who knows. Like, they can just say whatever they want AND expect everyone else to love it no matter how bad it is.

Usually. But that's not all on why these things are being said that way ^ ^
I have a habit of adding 'just' in many things I say--and I've noticed that it may be taken the wrong way with certain people, but to add on that outlook there, sometimes when people say 'just saying', it may mean that they're clearing out any other assumptions and mentioning only what they're pretty much talking about in the sentence before/after they say that.

Either that, or you've seen that line being said with assumed sarcasm from them ._. (which is usually a local/cultural thing with language...so it'll not give a good impression if it becomes an expected meaning on anyone hearing that).
If it becomes a sentence ender in itself (ie I'm just saying. [Then I don't follow it up maybe with more details to diffuse any misunderstandings?]), then perhaps the other person is working on assumptions of their own after they've stated an opinion. Usually it's a good note to point out what the meaning of what they've said to them so they're more aware on what they're just saying. :O But this is contextual advice.

[Truean]

A lot to work with here, but let's dig in, and perhaps that might help. I hope.

Two words: "Imperfect tools."

"I'm just saying" is a very imperfect tool. It's used to deflect negativity from things either better left unsaid or very very unfortunately needing to be said. 

Ideally the phrase would never be used, but the world isn't ideal. Ideally, people would say different things based upon the circumstances such as:

A.) If unpleasant but needed news: "I know this may be difficult but ...." or "I wish it didn't have to be this way but ...." etc.
B.) If something personal/embarrassing: [Quietly] I realize X is a sensitive topic but ...."
C.) If something better left unsaid: [don't say it], or "I don't want to bring up X, but might have to deal with X." [something more sensitive].

Sadly, the world being incredibly imperfect, we get these and other motives, see also Turuin's post, above. Moreover, we get people who may have bad intent as well. This is incredibly unfortunate and how the world basically is.

That said, Halon was right, "Never assume bad intentions when assuming stupidity is enough."

Sadly, they are convinced what they are doing is right, or "good enough" and will be offended by offers to improve their methods of communication, despite there being problems or room for improvement. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about grammar Nazi stuff, or hyper-technicality. Rather I'm talking about effective communication with fewer words and more meaning.

When with people, start assuming incurable stupidity. Idiot-proof things, without appearing to do so. <-- Critical.

In your examples, others seem clueless to other people in the conversation, and especially their enjoyment of it, or lack thereof. In my experience, these individuals tend to think more about WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO SAY, rather than WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. That is critical, and another flawed tool, ideally balance both. They can't. Seeing as you must live around them, you are better served by adapting around it. In simple sum, your boss/client/whoever, may well be a total moron suffering from the "I  D 10 T Error" (Idiot), but no amount of anything is going to fix that. Navigate around or if you must, through.

Another aspect of this, hinted at by Turuin, is the "just" problem. This can be a simple form of habitual speech said without conscious intent, or it can be something with more to it, such as sarcasm, or "minimization." It is highly context dependent.

Minimization, is often a manipulation technique in language, "it's just this" or basically less than. This states or implies that different (favorable to the speaker) treatment or thought should be given to the thing being minimized ("Just _____"). In this case, I may be wrong, but I think the person telling you "I'm just saying" is attempting to lower your resistance to their speaking ("I'm just saying") because they want to talk, perhaps to the exclusion of you. There is no way around this, that is acceptable. This is the type of customer you just plaster a grin on for until they eventually leave, or the friend you just don't hang out with anymore.

It is very dangerous to be right when the established authority is wrong.

That said, all the things I have said before apply. What you can control; all you can control is your reaction to things (mental, emotional, physical, etc). Difficult? Yes. Needed, often yes. Remember the following, it is usually their problem, you are merely stuck in it for a short amount of time. Do what you can, because you can't do what you can't do (by definition).

This we too shall pass.

I truly do hope that gives you some help, in combination with the other things I have said and perhaps will say here. That said, I do not begin to know and can't know all you go through or all circumstances. What I can do, all I can do, is offer some guidance. My tools are imperfect to. Making with perfect tools is easy. We have none. We must make with imperfect tools. That, that is the key.

[Trapezohedron]

Yeah, no matter how hard it is, it is harder still to let people who may only care about themselves change for you. Thus, navigate and manipulate with the tools you control, like your own mental processes.

For me, Meditation is simply focus. Feelings are nebulous; you can toss that out. Instead, if you're toiling on a project, for one example, focus only on the goal, and getting there. Focus on the possible errors that may occur. Keep focusing, and keep thinking. Never think about the other people who piss you off. Look forward to the end of the day, the achievement of a goal, or both.

Given enough focus, you wouldn't even bother reacting too hard to other stupid people's reactions, expectations and opinions.


Just saying, as they already said, indicates an opinion people feel strongly about, and feel entitled to say, but automatically deflecting all manner of criticism, up to and including them stating an opinion you never asked about. In which case, you are not entitled to actually listen to it, as with a lot of things, and you may choose to ignore it. If you see yourself dwelling too much in it, start meditating - start focusing again.

Zen, as one may say, means eschewing everything except one - and that should be a Zen person's goals. You have your part to do. Focus. Do not let people distract you. Do not let their entitled opinions bother you; they're good-hearted most of the time, but they do not realize the circumstances that led you into whatever vexes them, and therefore they are stupid. Do not let this bother you. Your goal is the only thing that matters. Do not blame them either; you do not have time for hate and dwelling on things wastes your time.

Just focus. They do not understand you. But you do. And you are in control of yourself, and not them. The same applies with them.

[eerr]

Wow what Truean shut up you aren't going to solve this problem with paragraphs upon paragraphs. What The Fuck.

Anyway, it's my experience that people are responding to the way you act. So if you have a frown people are reading that.

People will regularly read these social cues to tell them what to do so learn not to fuck that up.

Or at least make it so you aren't opposite of how you feel.

[ChairmanPoo]

I insist: keep cool, keep calm, and ignore them if after asking them politely and quietly ("I'm sorry, but I can't discuss that right now". Or "I'm sorry but I'm busy") they refuse to disengage.

[Tiruin]

Wow what Truean shut up you aren't going to solve this problem with paragraphs upon paragraphs. What The Fuck.

Anyway, it's my experience that people are responding to the way you act. So if you have a frown people are reading that.

People will regularly read these social cues to tell them what to do so learn not to fuck that up.

Or at least make it so you aren't opposite of how you feel.

You aren't helping either with that kind of attitude, dude. Truean isn't 'solving this problem'--she's helping by giving advice. She's not advocating her words as "The Solution"^TM, and '> 5 paragaphs' isn't something to gawk and swear at. Only the person themself is able to solve their own problems--exposure and detail in understanding their problems or how to understand it helps; the more details that specify reasoning and understanding, the better it goes.

Practice politeness, eerr, and commit the same quality you're giving in your own words, to your own actions here: People don't take being called WTF very well. Especially in brevity. If one is to react bluntly, it's better to say why they think so along with it.
Blinking back on topic, @Robot: Understanding the social culture of your locality also helps--which generally means understanding how slang works as in communication, statements are modified towards what the more 'impactful' idea is. Media representations and what people are generally exposed to also act as influences towards what they say, so in those kinds of situations, interpreting what they mean literally isn't going to parallel what they really mean; in these cases, it's usually akin to idiomatic expressions wherein those singular words or phrases mean something else.

[Truean]

Sad. I give a path. Some like it; some won't. Unlike RPL's situation, you need not listen. Read, or don't. No one forces you here. Humanity's problems can't be solved in paragraphs, pages, or tomes. Certainly not mere sentences. This is but just a tool in a vast set of tools. Use, or don't.

Your words won't irritate me. All, myself too, have imperfect tools. Demanding "shut up" is normally an imperfect tool. TL;DR won't work here. My words are shorter and sharper to the point than most. Read, ascend, or don't.

You seem upset, troubled. I wish you weren't, & woe that you are. Rage and sorrow beget more rage and sorrow, and the only winners are ever multiplying rage and sorrow. Perhaps you seek to help by assuming RPL's social ques may be off. There's a tendency to lower amount of information, but this is only optimal if it focuses on increasing meaning, as I do. These are not rants. Learn from or fight me as you will or won't. Whichever makes no difference; I care not.

It is simple yet profound; I am insulted but safe within my own mind. It has no effect. I could spend my life rebutting the world outside my front door that mistakes "Shut up" for enlightenment, because it shouts and shoves down everyone. No. Thank you. I'm not going to make anyone here my enemy, because there's no point and nothing to gain. I presuppose others have their own problems influencing bad behavior, and that is actually quite sad and regrettable (unfair really, perhaps to them). Look at the comment threads on most news articles. Full. Of. Hatred. I'm not going there, even if I have to go inside my mind to avoid it. Perfect? No. Better option? Yeah.

And this, RPL, is practicing what I preach.

[Robot Parade Leader]

Damn, that's the most restraint I've seen on the internet since freaking ever.

Either you know something I really don't or something is off here. Prolly that first one knowing my luck. How do you just fucking float above all that shit that life just throws right at you all the time like you're talking about? Like, somebody tells me something stupid or whatever and sometimes I just wanna punch 'em but I just fucking can't. Yeah, sure, part of it's that I don't wanna be in jail or whatever, but I just want to scream or something. I can't do that shit either.

I might not be smart enough to get what you're talking about either. I'm tryin' to think about this whole ocean stuff you're saying, so does that mean that people just have a ton of shit making them feel like crap all day? They can't handle it and stuff, is that what you're saying? Cause I think that's it, but I've been wrong a lot before.

So I'm supposed to try and not let it bother me cause these people pissing me off have their own problems and it's really no use? Part of that's the whole happy place thing? Is there more to it, because that sounds really hard?

Can you make this philosophy shit clearer for me, because I'm pretty sure I'm not getting a good chunk of it.

[Tiruin]

Damn, that's the most restraint I've seen on the internet since freaking ever.

Either you know something I really don't or something is off here. Prolly that first one knowing my luck.

Giving a nod to Truean here, sometimes, restraint is in already understanding the one throwing s--- at you down to why and what led them to do that. Knowing the consequences if one did something this way or the other. Understanding how to assess it and react to it, especially in noticing the background into what's being said. All this happens in understanding either from direct experience or otherwise. All this happens at the speed of thought, less than a second by reflexive timing, and more than several if it's spoken in mind.

I might not be smart enough to get what you're talking about either. I'm tryin' to think about this whole ocean stuff you're saying, so does that mean that people just have a ton of shit making them feel like crap all day? They can't handle it and stuff, is that what you're saying? Cause I think that's it, but I've been wrong a lot before.

Never say you're not smart enough. You possess all the intelligence capable of understanding these things. The reality is in exposure and experience--"we were not aware so it's not in current knowledge". Truean uses metaphors to detail concrete concepts in order to expound and express them in a more malleable way to the reader, but also adds detail to them to give a gist or theme to understand. While I can't speak for her the 'ocean' is usually connected to the idea of describing any idea that is difficult to specifically measure, though just as much easy to quantify as a general whole: population, society, culture, reality. It's a general term used to give an idea, just like how the ocean gives an idea of a big mass of water.

[jhxmt]

On the same page as Truean here, I think.

Ultimately, nobody in the world wakes up in the morning and thinks, "You know what?  Today I'm going to be an utter bastard."  Nobody sees themselves as being malicious, or destructive, or evil.  Way down deep, right down at the base level, everybody tries to do the right thing.  (Caveat: my philosophy.  Your mileage may vary.)

The issue is that people's interpretations of what "the right thing" is depends on a lot of factors.  For example, I'm very much a 'support' type of person - that's pretty core to my personality, due to combination of nature/nurture, so that's how I tend to approach most things.  If I see someone working on something or having trouble with something, my instinctive, go-to action is to try to get them to talk about it, ask questions, find out why they're doing things a certain way, investigate what makes them see that as the right way, etc etc.  That's because, in my head, "the right thing" to do is to try to work out what people are trying to do, why they're trying to do it a certain way, and whether there's a more effective way that I could point out to them.

This approach utterly infuriates some people - and understandably so.  For some people, I appear to simply be asking questions about things that aren't relevant to the task at hand - I'm not addressing the problem, I'm not taking the quickest and most efficient path to the solution, I'm wasting time, etc.  For some people, "the right thing" to do when they see someone struggling with a task might simply be to take over and do the task themselves.  My way is, to them, wrong - just as, to me, their way is wrong.

The important thing is that, objectively, neither of the above approaches is definitively right or wrong.  There's no call for me to get angry with the other type of person, to rant and rave about their approach, to tell them they're out of order, to assume that they're trying to undermine me or that they're being deliberately difficult.  They are, like me, trying to do the right thing.  Our interpretations just differ.

Now, not everybody thinks that way.  Some people do jump to conclusions about what's going on in other people's heads, and make (unwarranted) assumptions.  But, unfortunately, you cannot control what goes on in other people's heads, or the actions that they choose to take as a result.  The only things - the only things - that you can control are those things that occur in your own head, and the actions that you choose to take as a result.

And therefore, when e.g. a customer gets mad and starts shouting at you, there's no need to get angry, or upset, in response.  Their thoughts, feelings and actions don't dictate your own.  If getting angry or upset isn't useful, then it doesn't benefit you.  And, more importantly, why would you get angry with them?  The fact that they're getting angry shows that they're suffering - because that's all it is, ultimately.  They don't know how to deal with the situation.  They can't handle it.  They're not trying to be bastards, they're not trying to ruin your life...they just don't know what "the right thing" is in that situation.

That's not to say you have to just stand there and take it.  If you're able to empathise with their situation, you can try to explain the problem to them in a way that they can understand, hoping that it'll allow them to work out "the right thing".  If that doesn't work, you can disengage from the situation - walk away, or ask them not to speak to you that way, or direct them to your manager, or some other method.

But ultimately, their actions aren't your fault, and aren't able to directly influence your brain.  Everything you perceive has to go through your own mental filters before it reaches you - that's why misperceptions are so commonplace, that's why cognitive biases exist, that's why depression is a thing, that's why there are a whole host of mental disorders out there that result from your filters not working to their best.  If you're looking at the world through a dirty lens, it's all going to look like crap.

Like, somebody tells me something stupid or whatever and sometimes I just wanna punch 'em but I just fucking can't. Yeah, sure, part of it's that I don't wanna be in jail or whatever, but I just want to scream or something. I can't do that shit either.

The real question here is, why do you want to punch them?  What is it you believe that would achieve?  This isn't a trick question or a trap or an attempt to undermine you, I genuinely would like to know why that's the course of action that appeals to you.  See my earlier point about liking to ask people questions. 

Edit: okay, that was a long post than I anticipated.  I ramble sometimes.  My apologies.  Distill what you can from it.

[gimlet]

+1 Truean.  Yeah a lot of times people are just trying to push your buttons for their own amusement, or for some stupid "see he's mad too so he's no better than me" kind of crap.  I hate being forced to do anything, so I try really hard not to give people like that what they want.  And a lot of times if I can stifle the first angry response, I can stay calm(ish) through the whole exchange, and then it's kind of fun to watch their escalating attempts to provoke.  A lot of times they'll try harder and harder to the point they obviously look like bullies or frothing idiots to witnesses.

One book/series that helped me a lot was "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense" - it may be a bit hard to find now, but I haven't  seen anything else quite like it.  There's some bits on her website http://www.adrr.com/aa/  especially the excerpts/overview/FAQ - and ESPECIALLY the ""Only a Wimp Would Let That One Go By!"" bit in the Excerpts as a quick overview of why not to take the bait.

And agree w/jhxmt too, sometimes there's a kernel of truth in the communication, buried in the aggro/frustration.  Something tiny you did or appeared to do might have been the "straw that broke the camel's back" for somebody who's been stressed all day.  Or you haven't been doing things "their way" and maybe you didn't even know it.

[Trapezohedron]

Damn, that's the most restraint I've seen on the internet since freaking ever.

Either you know something I really don't or something is off here. Prolly that first one knowing my luck. How do you just fucking float above all that shit that life just throws right at you all the time like you're talking about? Like, somebody tells me something stupid or whatever and sometimes I just wanna punch 'em but I just fucking can't. Yeah, sure, part of it's that I don't wanna be in jail or whatever, but I just want to scream or something. I can't do that shit either.

I might not be smart enough to get what you're talking about either. I'm tryin' to think about this whole ocean stuff you're saying, so does that mean that people just have a ton of shit making them feel like crap all day? They can't handle it and stuff, is that what you're saying? Cause I think that's it, but I've been wrong a lot before.

So I'm supposed to try and not let it bother me cause these people pissing me off have their own problems and it's really no use? Part of that's the whole happy place thing? Is there more to it, because that sounds really hard?

Can you make this philosophy shit clearer for me, because I'm pretty sure I'm not getting a good chunk of it.

To float above is to catch the fact that you are getting angry and irritated, and not acting on those impulses. But you're angry, why should you? The consequences could be more dire if you argued harder than if you didn't. You weigh your options whether it's worth it to be angry or not. Then you shoot one of the options down, preferably the one getting angry, and reply politely and if need be, detached, to the person inquiring. You can then say, I don't know, or I can't say. Or state personal reasons. Or that you're busy. Typically, people will respect your rights there and then.

It's much harder with families under certain cultures, because some of them demand full transparency. In which case, you can try to make an excuse. No, try to avoid lying. Lying can get pathological and severe. Instead, recount the entire situation, and summarize all the major points. If they find the explanation unsatisfactory, you can opt to go out and away from the source of the problem, if it's a problem you don't want explained.

If someone wants you to agree, you can perhaps give a non-committal yes.

In the context of the internet, avoiding arguments is as simple as catching yourself typing some rebuttal, remarking whether this is worth your while, and deciding from there that it (probably) isn't.

Time is money, you shouldn't try wasting it too much on arguments you don't believe in. AND FINALLY, if someone is baiting you, do not take the bait. It's not worth it.


Part of my technique is realizing why people can be shit is because, there's also shit they're dealing with. They're the same as you: people. So, its ultimately your decision if you want to argue or if it isn't worthwhile.

I believe David Foster Wallace's commencement speech (abridged) changed my way of thinking partly.