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Author Topic: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs  (Read 14728 times)

fearlesslittletoaster

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Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« on: April 04, 2016, 11:28:10 am »

So as I play the new version (42.06) I am finding that even after considerable time and some effort my dwarves have needs that I simply cannot meet. I have started this thread to compile my findings and see if anyone else has been able to satisfy the fashionable cravings of the modern Dwarf; my overall testing has been limited due to kids, and my house trying to fall down because it's old, and... pretty much life. Also, if you have a need you can't seem to satisfy post it here and I will try to help you solve it. I have figured out how to fix all of them except the ones below.

The wiki only seems to focus  For reference the wiki page on needs can be found here: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Need

- Lack of decent meals.
The base cause of this is well understood; a dwarf will only have this need satisfied by eating something they have in their likes. However even when something they like is on hand they won't eat it every time. I tested this on my main smith, who liked goat cheese, and while I always had goat cheese or prepared meals containing it on hand he frequently picked something else to eat.

Questions to research:
- Do dwarves seek out food they prefer when choosing their meals, or do they just grab what's closest?
- Does drinking an alcohol a dwarf likes satisfy this need?
- Does cooking a booze a dwarf likes into a prepared meal make it satisfy this need? (I have read somewhere that it does, but unable to confirm.)

Unable to acquire something
While I have seen dwarves meet this need somehow I have been unable to pin down the exact method. The wiki states it is met through getting any item, via trade or demand, but that does not seem to translate directly to fortress mode.

I have done the following to try and meet this need, without success:
- Make crafts of both a type and material that a specific dwarf likes in large numbers. The dwarf appeared uninterested even with this need outstanding over several years. The dwarf in question was given leisure time and had a chest in his quarters.
- Make nice, new clothes for a dwarf and checked back to ensure that dwarf had put them on. This did not satisfy the need.

Questions:
- Do attributes impact how often a dwarf goes looking for something to acquire?
- Does trading with a caravan meet this need?
- What items are valid targets for acquisition? Does this apply to luxury goods only (for example bracelets and amulets) and not to needed items like articles of clothing?

Being away from friends
This need seems to be totally unfulfilled on my entire fort, even on dwarves with large numbers of friends. While the dwarves do plenty of socializing in the tavern, they never have this need satisfied. In an attempt to fix this I used one of my starting seven, who was friends with four others of the group, and created five overlapping statue gardens to get them to interact more. They ignored this for over a year, preferring to socialize in the tavern instead. Then the experiment was abruptly terminated by a forgotten beast made of steel that shot webs.

Questions:
- What counts as being around friends? Does simply being near them count, such as burrowing them together, or do they have to have social interaction as they would in a tavern?

Being away from family
See above in friends, appears to be the same thing.

Questions:
- Is this need simply impossible to meet if the family was left when the dwarf migrated?
- What counts as being around family? Presence or social interaction?

Being unable to wander
Very rare need I have never seen met. Wiki says for adventurers it requires going to a different map tile.

Questions:
- Is this implemented in Fortress mode the same way as adventure mode?
- Does walking across the map satisfy this need? Technically it would be crossing tiles on anything but a 1x1 embark.

Being unable to make romance
Fairly rare need. Very few cases of it, so no real testing.

Questions:
- Does this need mean making woopie, or just talking with a potential romantic partner?
- Do marriage suites satisfy this need?   
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Mostali

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2016, 01:08:11 pm »

I hope we get much of this sorted out. As a former Sims player I watch my dwarf needs pretty closely.

Not science, but some observations I have noted:

A saw a dwarf with an "interacted with friend" positive thought.  So I know it can happen.

Early forts get a lot of unacquired thoughts.  The more diverse my production the much less frequently this happens.  I think if every wearable item is available and they have time off to go get them, this need will be satisfied for all.  I don't think material matters.

I suspect romance can be resolved with a pre-honeymoon suite. 
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2016, 02:55:35 pm »

- Lack of Decent meals: My investigations have ended up as a suggestion http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=155850.0. The first post also summarizes my understanding of the current situation.
- Need to acquire something: As far as I understand trinkets does that (crowns, rings,...). There's a separate need for clothing (extravagant?) and I can't keep track of which one is which. Each piece of clothing seems to help in satisfying the clothing need. Some dorfs (and gremlins) acquire quite a few trinkets, while other have fewer. The DFHack command "cleanowned scattered x" rounds up trinkets at times, so I suspect they drop "old" things in their rooms at times.
- Friends and family: Dorfs seem totally unable to actively trying to do anything about this. One would assume dorfs without friends and/or family should socialize to try to get either, but they probably don't understand the connection.
I've occasionally seen good thoughts from talking with a friend or sibling, so it does happen, but I don't know if socializing counts as talking, and, of so, what the distance may be.
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fearlesslittletoaster

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2016, 04:08:50 pm »


- Need to acquire something: As far as I understand trinkets does that (crowns, rings,...). There's a separate need for clothing (extravagant?) and I can't keep track of which one is which. Each piece of clothing seems to help in satisfying the clothing need. 

I can confirm that the extravagent need can be met by trinkets alone, probably based off total value. I have one dwarf wearing a masterwork Electrum amulet worth 1200 Urists who has this need permanently met despite no-quality and worn clothing.


-The DFHack command "cleanowned scattered x" rounds up trinkets at times, so I suspect they drop "old" things in their rooms at times.

Dwarves will store jewellery and trinkets in a bag, chest, or coffer in their quarters now, just like they store clothing in cabinets. Without a container they just drop stuff on the floor. 
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bmxbumpkin

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2016, 04:32:16 pm »

I seem to remember reading so.ewhere that dwarves do not socialize in taverns or in temples. A simple meeting area, or perhaps a dining area allows them too.  Can anyone else confirm this?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2016, 04:54:23 pm »

They definitely display the unspecified Socialize activity quite a lot in taverns, as well as singing, reading poetry, etc. I don't think I've seen them perform any social activities in either the temple or library, though (I don't count library activities Research!, Ponder... and discuss X as social activities). My temple is bare, though, but I didn't see anything when instruments were provided (without any staff).
In fact, the pre honeymoon suite setup relies on tavern Socialize activities.

Edit: I've seen someone claim temples scattered along "roads" in the fortress helped with social contacts, but that's all I have on temples being useful for that purpose.
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Bumber

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2016, 11:39:07 pm »

Unable to acquire something
While I have seen dwarves meet this need somehow I have been unable to pin down the exact method. The wiki states it is met through getting any item, via trade or demand, but that does not seem to translate directly to fortress mode.
Dwarves can claim an item they're hauling if they like it. (There was a related bug.) I think they store the item in their room. I've seen it mostly with books, to my annoyance.
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

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fearlesslittletoaster

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2016, 12:01:46 am »

Dwarves can claim an item they're hauling if they like it. (There was a related bug.) I think they store the item in their room. I've seen it mostly with books, to my annoyance.

This might actually make sense for the case I specifically used for testing. I usually pay attention to the needs of the dwarves who I care about most, specifically smiths who make armor and weaponry. They are typically unable to acquire anything no matter how long I give them to do it. They also have all hauling disabled because I don't want them wasting their time moving dead bugs and XXsocksXX around when I am scrambling to get ready for the next attack (fortress defense mod woop woop!).

I will enable limited hauling on them as soon as I get a chance to test this, and set up a hauling loop of objects they prefer. Theoretically they should choose something pretty fast, if the old claim mug/minecart bug is any indicator. Stand by for experiments.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2016, 05:20:27 am »

I've had two cases of diorite liking dorfs (in two different 0.42.05 fortresses) who steal diorite pots and just lug those around, moving at a crawl, so some stolen stuff is not stored.
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Saiko Kila

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2016, 08:34:13 am »

The most annoying case I had was a dwarf, who claimed a stack of 500 steel coins. I was going to split it to exploit smelter, and the idiot stole it. Why isn't it a crime? I don't want it to be a hanging offence, just some time in a solitary confinement...
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fearlesslittletoaster

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2016, 06:18:23 pm »

CONFIRMED: Dwarves satisfy the "acquire something" need by claiming something that they are hauling. After three test runs my research indicates that this is the only time they will requisition an item. Therefore if a dwarf has all hauling labors disabled this need will be permanently un-met. My experiment involved the following steps:

1. Identify three dwarves who I had deemed critical and disabled all hauling on.
2. Re-enable item hauling
3. Craft rings/bracelets/amulets out of materials all three have a preference for.
4. Design a very large no-bin stockpile that only accepts those items, have it take from main finished goods stockpile after making sure all three test dwarves were idle.

All dwarves promptly took one of the pieces of jewelry and put it on, satisfying the 'acquire something' need. One also satisfied the be extravagant need by taking a masterwork electrum amulet; as he seems to be keeping it on this need may now be permanently met for him.

If somebody else can reproduce we should annotate this to the wiki.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2016, 04:59:41 am »

CONFIRMED: Dwarves satisfy the "acquire something" need by claiming something that they are hauling. After three test runs my research indicates that this is the only time they will requisition an item. Therefore if a dwarf has all hauling labors disabled this need will be permanently un-met. My experiment involved the following steps:

1. Identify three dwarves who I had deemed critical and disabled all hauling on.
2. Re-enable item hauling
3. Craft rings/bracelets/amulets out of materials all three have a preference for.
4. Design a very large no-bin stockpile that only accepts those items, have it take from main finished goods stockpile after making sure all three test dwarves were idle.

All dwarves promptly took one of the pieces of jewelry and put it on, satisfying the 'acquire something' need. One also satisfied the be extravagant need by taking a masterwork electrum amulet; as he seems to be keeping it on this need may now be permanently met for him.

If somebody else can reproduce we should annotate this to the wiki.
You probably did this, but I can't read it from your description:
1. Disable all hauling on identified dorfs.
2. Craft items, and let them go into the general stockpile (or stay in the workshop).
3. Wait
4. Verify the dorfs had not picked up produced stuff as they do with clothing.
5. Make sure the dorfs are idle, set up the new stockpile (or enable it), as well as enabling hauling on the test subjects.
6. Verify items have been picked up.
The difference is the verification that they don't just pick stuff up when produced, but do when hauled.

I'm not convinced the permanent usage of trinkets would result in an extravagant need being met permanently. The dorf should be monitored to check whether this satisfaction decays and needs to be refreshed periodically or not (since Toady doesn't do long term testing, problems like wearing extravagant items that no longer satisfy the need may very well exist. I've certainly seen dorfs (and gremlins) carrying multiple trinkets of the same kind, and I wouldn't exactly be surprised it they'd just accumulate stuff at times rather than replacing items, but since they drop stuff in their rooms they presumably do some replacement).
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fearlesslittletoaster

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2016, 11:09:37 am »

You are correct on the steps detailed above. As for extravagance, I have one dwarf wearing a masterwork electrum amulet who has had the need met for three years now without interruption; he is one of my main smiths so I look at his status often.

I also had a greedy metalsmith create a bunch of jewellery out of a material he liked, and he did not claim any after creating over sixty objects.
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TheFlame52

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2016, 03:41:51 pm »

As for wandering, I've seen dwarves go wandering about on the surface, coming back with satisfied needs.

PatrikLundell

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2016, 03:49:32 pm »

As for wandering, I've seen dwarves go wandering about on the surface, coming back with satisfied needs.
Given how other need satisfaction violates burrows, I wouldn't be surprised if the morons violating civilian alert burrows going on walkabouts out to enemy siegers are trying to do just that.
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