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Author Topic: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs  (Read 18336 times)

Fleeting Frames

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2017, 03:16:36 pm »

Could turn on speaking logging in announcements.txt to see if they talk to each other at all, though this doesn't really matter regarding needs.

@Sanctume: Assumed you were describing a completely sealed room, which would need food and water.

I went in Moonhome for bed, bed, table | chair, statue, food | table, drink, drink piles, if wells are not possible. Would have made more automatic ahead of time if I wasn't half-assing it.

FantasticDorf

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2017, 03:39:00 pm »

Better yet i could just filter it into combat reports so it doesn't interrupt the main game. I dont know if [SPEAK:UCR] making it on the fly would work though, since it'd be easier to log

> I can't see any function to enable speak logging initially

Ok found it. [REGULAR_CONVERSATION:A_D]


First few minutes of dialog, with [REGULAR_CONVERSATION:D_D] enabled since UCR doesn't work confirms that the starting 7 aren't denied the ability to talk to each other & make introductions.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

They are still talking about beasts etc even during dwarf mode unprompted, no wonder you'd be annoyed.

Wait. i've got it, maybe its this bug? Dwarves dont make introductions but randomly spam messages of troubles, ill wait for more chit chat though.

CONTINUATION EDIT

All the dwarves have descended into gibberish about worldgenerated troubles, bandits & events. Im tempted to set the config for no outside history but fearful they might all start repeating the same events.

Another log
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Even though they have had plenty of time, they are still introducing each other constantly. Im highlighting the events reports for your courtesy, they are all the same shade of blue in announcements

Not a coincidence that Etur & Olon are the unpopular dwarves who remain long term aquaintences to some and friends to others.

Ok, finally got a conversation that made a thought and seemed logical, beast/trouble enquiries don't seem to count.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Two weasel devils are also having a actual conversation about "stuff" rather than happenings somewhere on layer 163 since i can zone in on them.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 05:21:00 pm by FantasticDorf »
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2017, 11:35:20 pm »

I more meant on the existing experiment, but okay. Didn't know there was a bug report, nj finding that.

And yeah, the demons are so much - well, not smarter, but better at socialization - than dwarves it is sad.

FantasticDorf

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2017, 03:44:18 am »

I more meant on the existing experiment, but okay. Didn't know there was a bug report, nj finding that.

And yeah, the demons are so much - well, not smarter, but better at socialization - than dwarves it is sad.

Well, they can't form new friends & need pre-requirements if they can't talk. I've been sifting through the responses and these 'arguements' dwarves been having in the mind screen are actually failures to talk (EI - there's no recognised content, so dwarves default it to having a arguement)

So the behaviour "works" (if you can pull dwarves away from zones for 1 second, i can confirm they don't talk there since all my announcements zoom in to my idler zone) but the function to speak is also broken simultaneously.

EDIT -

A migrant just talked normally to a stranger.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The rest of my dwarves with better social skills can't utter out a single sentence, this dwarf with only meagre skills & conversationalist though seems to be compatible with my other dwarf since they have a similar if not exact kind of value.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 05:15:53 am by FantasticDorf »
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TheFlame52

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2017, 08:58:20 am »

After reading this I'm debating going back to 0.40. How am I supposed to run a long term fortress without marriages?

PatrikLundell

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2017, 09:48:55 am »

After reading this I'm debating going back to 0.40. How am I supposed to run a long term fortress without marriages?
Careful selection and pre nuptial suite treatment can get them to marry even in 0.43.05, but it may take quite some time for them to get there. However, so far I've been able to resurrect dead civs fairly regularly (i.e. gotten at least 3 pairs to produce offspring), the exceptions being when I give up immediately and retry because the starting 7 are 6 of one gender and one of the other, and a bunch of them seem unlikely to be willing to marry anyway.
If you're not playing a dead civ migration and (dwarven) visitors who become citizens ought to be able to sustain your fortress with dwarf power indefinitely (but you can still help the socially inept creatures with marriage arrangements).
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Sanctume

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2017, 10:22:07 am »

After reading this I'm debating going back to 0.40. How am I supposed to run a long term fortress without marriages?
Careful selection and pre nuptial suite treatment can get them to marry even in 0.43.05, but it may take quite some time for them to get there. However, so far I've been able to resurrect dead civs fairly regularly (i.e. gotten at least 3 pairs to produce offspring), the exceptions being when I give up immediately and retry because the starting 7 are 6 of one gender and one of the other, and a bunch of them seem unlikely to be willing to marry anyway.
If you're not playing a dead civ migration and (dwarven) visitors who become citizens ought to be able to sustain your fortress with dwarf power indefinitely (but you can still help the socially inept creatures with marriage arrangements).

I think for that kind of embark, try using DFTools where you can change the stats, gender, orientation, age, count and even names of the starting dwarfs. 

I was looking at my notes from Silvermoon

And I only posted the summary of the result of the honeymoon suites.

This one is more compact honeymoon suite.


I have a lot more notes.  I started the 7 migrants each with Flatter+1 and Conversationalist+1.

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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2017, 12:11:16 pm »

@TheFlame52: I bred 19 dwarves to mountainhome in Moonhome with 4 pairs and 3x3 coupling rooms. Just have to force them to meet and bunk together for season-two. (Don't half-ass it, it took me longer than it should have because I assumed they would just do it naturally.)

Dragonborn

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2017, 12:56:53 pm »

How badly do these various needs problems affect really long forts, like 20+ years?  Dwarves may not tantrum anymore, but they do get distracted.  I see dwarves get distracted if you don't set up a library or temple within 5 years.  I'm beginning to wonder how screwed up things will get when the stress system is finally fixed.  It's going to require a lot of micromanagement to make sure individuals don't snap. 

Having to micromanage some of these needs seems like way to much work...  You could setup every single dwarf to at least have one crafting job of some kind, and create yearly work orders to produce items.  You could make sure they all have hauling turned on so that they claim items to satisfy that particular need.  You could screen each dwarf and assign hunting/herbalism/fishing to dwarves that need to wander.  Just wish there was an easy way to organize and sort through this kind of data.

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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2017, 01:32:24 pm »

Looking at Moonhome in 39th year....

Hm, seems to be fine. Can only find 1/147 (32yo second-generation) dwarf with downwards yellow arrow, whose needs are mostly yellow or brown - because apparently they keep on doing individual combat drills even on their half of time inactive, at a guess. On the positive side, omni-legendary combat skills and teacher. Mind, that's in a fort with copious amount of inactivity and tavern, temple and library all available in separate zones.

Pets and fbs don't fare so well, being unable to pray and socialize, but interestingly, children are focused and have their needs page missing. That would mean that in certain setups children learn faster and work/fight better than adults.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 01:35:59 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2017, 04:34:13 pm »

Needs is not that much of a problem with somewhat reasonable management. Personally I run my dead civ (i.e. low pop) fortresses on a cycle with two seasons of work (with caravans arriving), followed by one season of winding down (hauling all the stuff that didn't get hauled due to being short of dorf power), and one season of R&R/Procreation Management. One month of military training is thrown into the second half of the year.
Tavern, library, and temple are present for R&R.

As long as you meet a reasonable number of their needs citizens won't get particularly troubled, even if they'll continue to complain about not meeting non existent relatives and friends (and not getting any of the impossible-to-get foods they crave). I doubt DF intends to become a The Sims clone (if my understanding of how that game works is correct), so stress correction should still allow you to keep citizens with normal sensitivity in a reasonable shape with a reasonable effort, but it should be possible for (intentionally?) poorly handled fortresses to get its members to snap, as well as sensitive individual in "normal" fortresses. In addition to that, Starting Scenarios might include adjustments to sensitivity (prisoners in a prison colony should take more abuse before snapping than a bunch of pampered nobles at a luxury resort).
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Dragonborn

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2017, 06:19:19 pm »

That's good to know.  I'm not looking for 'The Sims' style of needs fulfillment, but maybe some more automation/smarter dwarves to help mitigate some of this.  If a dwarf is sad because of lack of meaningful work, it'd be cool if they could petition the manager and the manager could enable that some labors/assign some work.  Maybe that will be implemented when proper labor guilds are introduced.  Similarly, if a dwarf is sad due to lack of getting new stuff, make them smarter about going to stockpiles to get it themselves, rather than wait for them to haul something they like.  Maybe this problem would be solved when the economy get reintroduced and dwarves can go shopping for stuff they want.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 06:21:01 pm by Dragonborn »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2017, 06:56:06 pm »

Important update. It wasn't a official patch note but Toady offhand mentioned that relationships were fixed.

Quote from: Toadyone
Quote
Also I'm noticing relationships are forming again, did change anything about how they form while socializing?
I might have addressed something, though it was a long time ago and I must not have written it down.  I did check the chat function during Socialize, but I don't remember if I found an error.  Hopefully it is working now.

However the game is still riddled with lots of significant bugs Toady is working hard on fixing, so investigate at your own risk until a more stable update is available.
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maanahr

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Re: Lets do !!SCIENCE!!- Unmeetable Needs
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2017, 01:13:24 pm »

I didn't see this mentioned in this thread; I just had a dwarf get his "being extravagant" need fulfilled by taking a bath. Well, either that, or by being completely covered in booze.

Never mind, I think I'm misunderstanding how this works.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 01:44:16 pm by maanahr »
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