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Author Topic: How the very touch of adventurers destroys property rights.  (Read 9650 times)

Untrustedlife

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Re: How the very touch of adventurers destroys property rights.
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2016, 03:03:52 pm »

Abandoned/ruined buildings are architectural placeholders, they are not structually different from occupied ones in any non-superficial sense and this allows consistancy in the regeneration of the town from seed to (hopefully) be mantained while allowing for towns to change size.
Abandoned buildings lack some walls, etc. My point is that it's easier to generate the building anew from seed than to load the existing structure and try to figure out what needs to change.

Are fas as I hav eseen abandoned buildings look the exact same as normal buildings they just get no items put in them,
only the actual "ruined" building miss walls. I believe toady said, in the case of towns that the houses would just become "abandoned" not ruined can we get ruined buildings after post worldgen post adventurer invasions now?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 03:34:12 pm by Untrustedlife »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: How the very touch of adventurers destroys property rights.
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2016, 12:15:25 pm »

( I'm talking about cities not forts so perhaps they work differently)

Im a computer science major goblin. I know the difference . However DF loads sites and some terrain from chunks in the world file so it is constantly streaming (and offloading) the site to you similair to how minecraft does terrain  ( except it doesn't need to have as much loaded since what the player can see is much less) Which is why you have no "loading screen" when you visit your fortress , the problem with player forts is that toady can't split it into chunks so it loads the entire thing. Cities can be 16*16  and he can pull that off by generating the city and seperateing it out into chunks ( this was s big part of the site rewrite, before the first site rewrite human sites were loaded like forts (Toady lamented this many times)  so they  had to be tiny)
That is why you sometimes get those huge lag bursts when you first visit a city because it generates the whole city then offloads most of it.

Camps and lairs for example are loaded like player forts.

The whole world (with the sole exception of player fortresses) is recreated everytime from the same random seed based upon a set of raw data.  This includes things like the total population of the site, the list of animals and plants available, the present season and so on.  Nothing is stored except abstract data, everything is recreated every single time you load up the game; that is why interactions between fortress mode and the rest of the world are so scarce; there is literally nothing outside of the fortress at all except abstract numbers and group trackers on a simplified travel map. 

The world is indeed generated (not loaded) in chunks but every site is a single chunk.  This is the reason for the much lamented inability of the game sites to increase in population beyond 10,000, they cannot model more than than that many creatures 'actually existing' and doing stuff at a given time.  It is near certainty that cities are not loaded in chunks because if they were the population size would essentially be infinite because the creatures in the other chunks do not actually exist.  It is quite possible that cities used to be special, which explains their earlier small size; the memory requirements for loading things is far greater than for generating them, hence why the game uses the latter so much.

Since cities are the sites with the greatest need to be generated rather than loaded, it would be pretty staggering if cities were loaded while the other sites are generated.  The specialness of the cities was likely eliminated as Toady One figured out a way to generate them from base data like other sites.

You can't argue that it is regenerating your own fortress.

However it does seem like NPC forts work differently as do goblin forts , hillocks probably work like hamlets.

Goblin I'll go ahead and ask toady. I have trouble accepting that he loads town the way you say he does when he has only ever said it doesn't work that way. Sure it might not be s good way of doing it and I am aware, but toady never claimed to be an expert Programmer. Toady is very open to questions he cares about the community I'm sure it will be fine.

No reason to think that anything works differently except player forts.


-----------------------------------------------------
The item ownership is interesting I believe item ownership is planned to be tracked more once toady works on law/culture changes and right now it is very simple "oh you are in this building, now you belong to it" that sort of thing. And it will be great when he goes to track that more . I believe he plans. to actually track item amounts by name per (important) person.


Now items (as toady has said) are tracked numerically by site ( then they put all the spare items in warehouse buildings he does that so he can simulate trade.

Items you drop in a site are tracked by position. We can test the possible part of your theory by dropping an item in a shop in a city and see if the shop "claims" it.

We already know the answer, the shop does not claim it because I have dropped things on a trade depot and came back to find that despite being owned when it sold it it is now.  Trade depots remember are NEWER than shops and thus since they appear work identically in mechanical terms there every reason then to think that trade depots simply reuse the shop code in a different context (they are in code terms the same thing).  What I am claiming is that in order to reconcile your experiance of buying items sold by a previous adventurer with my experience of sold items lying about unowned once the site is reloaded exactly where they were left the sites hoover up tracked items that are left in shops into their site item list.

The site item list it stored abstractly and then the items are created based upon it to fill the appropriate locations when the site is regenerated.  If the regeneration happens say every 15 days then it would explain why new adventurer would be able to buy items from a previous dead adventurer, because enough time in the 'real world' has passed for the periodic 'sweep' to occur.  The original tracked are untracked (effectively 'destroyed' really) and uploaded into the abstract item list, hence becoming one of the items that does not exist when the site is offloaded and thus being ownable.

At the moment there are only two kinds of property in the world.  There is individual property and there is $SITE$ property, the thing is that this is always the property of THE SITE in general rather than any specific site, which is a bias that probably has something to do with the old economy.  The funny thing here is that it is site property not individual property that actually matters in the game but lacks development while individual property is more developed in code terms (with explicit trackers to individuals) even though it means little more than the items a given person is wearing which does not really require any specific mechanic since you cannot grab items people are wearing anyway.  It seems that the main thing that is mechanically neccessery to get rid of a load of economic exploits is simply to make every item on the map regardless of location belong to the site every time the site is generated/loaded provided that the item is not carried by anyone presently. 

This would get rid of at a stroke the often extremely valuable freebie items lying about in many sites and would fix the core issue of this thread at the same time, 

Time for more science perhaps? Did you delete the world entirely already?

Also remember to report it!

I have still got it but I do not think there is much more I can learn from it.  I can rather easily generate a medium world in order to test the mechanics that I learnt about from the buggy game but the buggy game itself has little more to teach it other than it and it's world seed are fundermentally rotten, sadly.  I can hardly be bothered to report it because it is an old bug that has been around for some time. 
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Untrustedlife

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Re: How the very touch of adventurers destroys property rights.
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2016, 12:17:59 pm »

Sent the email out to toady alongside my donation so we shall see .

Edit: got a reply:

Toady said its way more then just the seed (important buildings and such are tracked directly) and a lot  of it is based on the seed.

Some things are loaded differently though, like goblin towers that goblins built in human sites:

Quote
"
They have to be regenerated, yeah, but it's more than just a seed -- there's the whole site structure that has the distribution of industries, the important buildings, the number of buildings, etc.  So you should end up with the same stuff.  For those few examples now we have of sites changing, like goblin towers being built in conquered villages, it has to store all the changes separately.

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 5:54 AM REDACTED wrote:
I would like a continuation please.

I'm curious how are human cities loaded the second time one visits them does it just regen based on a seed?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 24, 2016, at 8:20 PM, Tarn Adams <tarn.adams@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
>
> This email is to confirm that $REDACTED has been received for Bay 12 Games through PayPal from somebody that typed in your email address.  Hopefully that was you!
>
> Thanks for your continuing support.  I just managed to claim a "mead hall"-style zone in an adventurer-created site with a player-created entity, so we're almost ready to move over to dwarf work orders now.
>
> If you'd like a Story Reward (either a continuation of your titans story or a new one), just let me know in a reply to this email.  If you'd like a Crayon Reward instead, you'll need to include a valid postal address with your reply.  Rewards will be vaguely related to Dwarf Fortress unless you ask for something else.
>
>
> Thanks again,
> Tarn

Sorry for doubting, it used to work differently so I wanted to be sure.

Everyone makes mistakes ;)


I should have assumed ( that's how I generate planets in the game in working on (seed/data) but the reason I doubted is because of what toady said earlier in the games development.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 12:53:46 pm by Untrustedlife »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: How the very touch of adventurers destroys property rights.
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2016, 11:11:18 pm »

GoblinCookie: Being an old bug is no reason not to help quash it.  Especially if you have saves that verify some bad behavior, upload it to DFFD, and post it. 

A search, incidentally, finds a Mantis report for the issue of ownership, but it seems to have only been discovered last September.  I do not see any report for items "moving" (relative to the town) due to a bug in regeneration.  You definitely should upload a save and make a report for that bug.



Anyway, yes, the way that GoblinCookie describes world-building is both accurate, and is pretty much the only way giant procedural worlds can be done.  (Including the likes of Minecraft. ESPECIALLY the likes of Minecraft - Minecraft worlds have a potential playing area the size of half the distance from the Earth to the Sun before the floats start really glitching the game out.)  I suspect that those town maps are merely generated to show you a map, then deleted in the knowledge that they can be recreated at will.  It is far more efficient to save just some abstract data like population size, resource totals, and notable industries and then have a determinable layout for what order every change in population will cause new building construction, and what buildings those will produce.

For example, back in the 0.28.40d days, I noticed that geography was the same, but stagnant ponds were in different locations depending on what the size of my embark was.  This was because (and I got this straight from the Toad's mouth,) ponds were generated off of seed upon first visiting the embark, and were placed as 5x5 tile chunks across the surface, while each embark tile was 48x48 map tiles, resulting in a mismatch when you embark over the same area, but stretch your embark one tile further West than you did the time before. 

It was also a known (and supposedly fixed) bug that general wilderness and even towns would generate differently when entering from different directions, and this was caused by a very similar bug related to tree spawning code.  Who knows, maybe the shift to multi-tile trees reproduced this once-fixed problem?  I can certainly see how generating trees that are large enough to "reach over" another tile can cause serious problems if you have a separate set of features like buildings that suddenly occupy a space a tree you already spawned already occupies. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 11:25:54 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Bumber

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Re: How the very touch of adventurers destroys property rights.
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2016, 11:33:31 pm »

Anyway, yes, the way that GoblinCookie describes world-building is both accurate, and is pretty much the only way giant procedural worlds can be done.  (Including the likes of Minecraft. ESPECIALLY the likes of Minecraft - Minecraft worlds have a potential playing area the size of half the distance from the Earth to the Sun before the floats start really glitching the game out.)
Minecraft actually stores all visited/generated chunks in their entirety, because it's terribly unoptimized. Starbound is a better example, storing only the changes made.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: How the very touch of adventurers destroys property rights.
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2016, 11:56:54 pm »

GoblinCookie: Being an old bug is no reason not to help quash it.  Especially if you have saves that verify some bad behavior, upload it to DFFD, and post it. 

A search, incidentally, finds a Mantis report for the issue of ownership, but it seems to have only been discovered last September.  I do not see any report for items "moving" (relative to the town) due to a bug in regeneration.  You definitely should upload a save and make a report for that bug.



Anyway, yes, the way that GoblinCookie describes world-building is both accurate, and is pretty much the only way giant procedural worlds can be done.  (Including the likes of Minecraft. ESPECIALLY the likes of Minecraft - Minecraft worlds have a potential playing area the size of half the distance from the Earth to the Sun before the floats start really glitching the game out.)  I suspect that those town maps are merely generated to show you a map, then deleted in the knowledge that they can be recreated at will.  It is far more efficient to save just some abstract data like population size, resource totals, and notable industries and then have a determinable layout for what order every change in population will cause new building construction, and what buildings those will produce.

For example, back in the 0.28.40d days, I noticed that geography was the same, but stagnant ponds were in different locations depending on what the size of my embark was.  This was because (and I got this straight from the Toad's mouth,) ponds were generated off of seed upon first visiting the embark, and were placed as 5x5 tile chunks across the surface, while each embark tile was 48x48 map tiles, resulting in a mismatch when you embark over the same area, but stretch your embark one tile further West than you did the time before. 

It was also a known (and supposedly fixed) bug that general wilderness and even towns would generate differently when entering from different directions, and this was caused by a very similar bug related to tree spawning code.  Who knows, maybe the shift to multi-tile trees reproduced this once-fixed problem?  I can certainly see how generating trees that are large enough to "reach over" another tile can cause serious problems if you have a separate set of features like buildings that suddenly occupy a space a tree you already spawned already occupies.

From that email, it sounds like toady saves the towers that are built over sites by goblin conquerors separately (since they would screw up the way the town generates)

Like I said, I know thats how it usually works, but toady had said different things in the past (eg in the df talk I quoted) , So I didn't want to be hasty. (like I said, computer science major)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 12:05:16 am by Untrustedlife »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: How the very touch of adventurers destroys property rights.
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2016, 11:10:24 am »

Minecraft actually stores all visited/generated chunks in their entirety, because it's terribly unoptimized. Starbound is a better example, storing only the changes made.

Funny, after working with some of the "Minecraft Clones", I thought they all did the "just regen unless changed" thing.

From that email, it sounds like toady saves the towers that are built over sites by goblin conquerors separately (since they would screw up the way the town generates)

Like I said, I know thats how it usually works, but toady had said different things in the past (eg in the df talk I quoted) , So I didn't want to be hasty. (like I said, computer science major)

He would because that's a "change made". He might also still have the tower interior, for that matter, be generated using standard tower generation methods unless altered. (Interiors are a separate "(predestined) roll of the dice".)

I think the problem you might be having is assuming more specificity than Toady's statements actually provide. While specific about bugs or results of actions, he is notoriously evasive of what his code actually does, even when someone like Quietust seemingly knows every freakin' byte in memory and explains in painstaking detail what is actually going on. When Toady says that he saves "the industry" of a town, that could mean anything as minimal as saving the number of industries and what has been produced stored as a list so that a pre-seeded procedural algorithm knows how many to place, but it is up to the algorithm where they are placed, to as maximal as the exact tile, creature, and item status of shops upon the instant of unloading.  And exploration (and bugs) prove it's more slanted towards, if not precisely, the minimal interpretation.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: How the very touch of adventurers destroys property rights.
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2016, 05:08:48 am »

Sent the email out to toady alongside my donation so we shall see .

Edit: got a reply:

Toady said its way more then just the seed (important buildings and such are tracked directly) and a lot  of it is based on the seed.

Some things are loaded differently though, like goblin towers that goblins built in human sites:

Quote
"
They have to be regenerated, yeah, but it's more than just a seed -- there's the whole site structure that has the distribution of industries, the important buildings, the number of buildings, etc.  So you should end up with the same stuff.  For those few examples now we have of sites changing, like goblin towers being built in conquered villages, it has to store all the changes separately.

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 5:54 AM REDACTED wrote:
I would like a continuation please.

I'm curious how are human cities loaded the second time one visits them does it just regen based on a seed?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 24, 2016, at 8:20 PM, Tarn Adams <tarn.adams@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
>
> This email is to confirm that $REDACTED has been received for Bay 12 Games through PayPal from somebody that typed in your email address.  Hopefully that was you!
>
> Thanks for your continuing support.  I just managed to claim a "mead hall"-style zone in an adventurer-created site with a player-created entity, so we're almost ready to move over to dwarf work orders now.
>
> If you'd like a Story Reward (either a continuation of your titans story or a new one), just let me know in a reply to this email.  If you'd like a Crayon Reward instead, you'll need to include a valid postal address with your reply.  Rewards will be vaguely related to Dwarf Fortress unless you ask for something else.
>
>
> Thanks again,
> Tarn

Sorry for doubting, it used to work differently so I wanted to be sure.

Everyone makes mistakes ;)


I should have assumed ( that's how I generate planets in the game in working on (seed/data) but the reason I doubted is because of what toady said earlier in the games development.

I though that when he says 'important buildings are tracked directly' he means that the fact that those buildings exist is tracked as part of the data and not that buildings are actually tracked in the sense that the location of the items are tracked.  The reason I say that is that is that due to the aforementioned bug the taverns locations would shift but not the items that were *in* the taverns so we ended up with all the coffers lying about with no taverns. 

The game basically records the fact there there is say a library in a given site and then generates a library in the site every time. 

GoblinCookie: Being an old bug is no reason not to help quash it.  Especially if you have saves that verify some bad behavior, upload it to DFFD, and post it. 

A search, incidentally, finds a Mantis report for the issue of ownership, but it seems to have only been discovered last September.  I do not see any report for items "moving" (relative to the town) due to a bug in regeneration.  You definitely should upload a save and make a report for that bug.

I should, it is just that Adventure is so buggy that I am pretty weary of having to play unpaid beta tester for something so buggy and incomplete that should not really have been released yet  >:( >:( >:(.  Basically Adventure mode is so clogged up with bugs, that I cannot feel bothered to report all the bugs because of the sheer annoyance of doing so.  Adventure mode is basically one huge reminder that dwarf fortress is incomplete, from Fortress mode alone I would conclude that the game is essentially complete.

In any case, here it is.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9685
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 05:43:09 am by GoblinCookie »
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Bumber

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Re: How the very touch of adventurers destroys property rights.
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2016, 09:52:51 am »

You didn't mention adventure-touched items or the loss of ownership, which makes it basically a duplicate of 9499 or 6955.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 09:55:27 am by Bumber »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: How the very touch of adventurers destroys property rights.
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2016, 10:59:10 pm »

There's a reason Toady's taken a lot of time out from Fortress Mode to give Adventure Mode the better part of his attention for the last couple years.  Even having forts to screw up is a big improvement over dwarves literally just standing out in an open field from a few versions ago...

Besides, it's not like Toady hasn't been fairly good about bug-hunting in the past couple years.  Seven of my last ten have been marked resolved... I even can claim something of a feature that I had suggested as a fix to an earlier problem with werecreature kills actually being used in-game; I suggested werecreature hunts being orchestrated as an in-game response to cities suffering from massive werecreature infestations (which were originally just "toned down" with less rampages) but when I showed vampires were just as much a problem, it was added as a solution a couple updates ago.
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