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Author Topic: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?  (Read 16598 times)

Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2016, 07:35:06 pm »

That previous Pokemodders may have changed them in order to better reflect pokemon stats. Like ekans has good strength and agility there, but not very high toughness or recooperation.

Here are the ekans stats at lv 50 and level 100. They don't exactly line up with the stats you listed though. So I'm not sure what the deal is.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm not sure either. Going through and rebalancing the stats will be something we need to do it seems.



Okay so I did it, sorta. I made the Nidoran family, complete with Nidoking/Nidoqueen. Currently it doesn't use a moonstone but I'm pretty sure that will later be possible with some interaction/syndrome wizardry.

Here's some screenshots for yall <3
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So the nidoran raws are pretty big, and, they need some work. I'm not very good with creatures and body parts and all that honestly. You can download the .zip file below. You'll find the creatures in creature_pokemon_0_151, as well as parts in body_pokemon. The evolution interaction is done in interaction_pokemon. It's all pretty self explanatory.
This is the download link for the current pack of all raws.
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Roboson

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2016, 08:38:30 pm »

-snip
Currently it doesn't use a moonstone but I'm pretty sure that will later be possible with some interaction/syndrome wizardry.
-snip-

If I remember correctly, a gem/stone can be used in an interaction as reagent that produces a stone which boils at room temperature and delivers a syndrome. In that case, evolution stones can be buried in stone layers and dug up by members of the fortress. Then they could be used to evolve pokemon at a custom workshop.

Thats the only way I can think of setting up evolution via stone. Another method is it could be made a consumable (like food or drink) which eliminates the problem of the reaction syndrome gas not quite working, but introduces the problem of something which cant evolve via stone consuming it.
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Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2016, 09:02:00 pm »

If I remember correctly, a gem/stone can be used in an interaction as reagent that produces a stone which boils at room temperature and delivers a syndrome. In that case, evolution stones can be buried in stone layers and dug up by members of the fortress. Then they could be used to evolve pokemon at a custom workshop.
How would you include an animal in a reaction though? I know the farmer's workshop does it but I think that's hardcoded, I'm not seeing anything in the wiki.

So I also started an excel sheet and I was going to start listing out how the old mod handles the -/=/+/etc... ranges for phys att ranges, but I'm noticing inconsistencies even within the same stat.
For example Bulbasaur's Strength is '=' and it's phys att range for strength is "750:850:900:950:1000:1050:1150"
Ivysaur's strength is also '=' yet it's range for strength is "850:950:1000:1050:1100:1150:1250" which is bulbasaur's + 100, in each value.
Venusaur's is '++' and it's range is "1050:1150:1200:1250:1300:1350:1450", which is +200 to Ivysaurs.

I then checked for another '=' range and found Charmander's strength range, which is "750:850:900:950:1000:1050:1150", the same as Bulbasaur's. They might have divided each range by evolution level, seeing as both of these have the same range and are both first evolution Pokemon. I'll continue filling out the chart and seeing if it's all consistent that way.

Edit: Nope. Bulbasaur's toughness is '-' and it's range is "725:825:875:925:975:1025:1125", while charmander's toughness is '-' and it's range is "675:775:825:875:925:975:1075". I really don't know honestly. I'll just list them all out by Pokemon, and then we can maybe see whats going on.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 09:30:14 pm by Toxicshadow »
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Roboson

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2016, 09:40:20 pm »

-snip-
How would you include an animal in a reaction though? I know the farmer's workshop does it but I think that's hardcoded, I'm not seeing anything in the wiki.

-snip-

You can't put a specific animal in the reaction. However, there is an alternative method. You make the syndrome only effect a specific pokemon. Then you make sure that pokemon is present at the workshop when doing the reaction (either by use of burrows, military commands, or through the use of the manager workshop screen). Then when you do the reaction, pokemon who are affected by the syndrome evolve and those who aren't affected don't do anything.
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Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2016, 10:12:34 pm »

-snip-
How would you include an animal in a reaction though? I know the farmer's workshop does it but I think that's hardcoded, I'm not seeing anything in the wiki.

-snip-

You can't put a specific animal in the reaction. However, there is an alternative method. You make the syndrome only effect a specific pokemon. Then you make sure that pokemon is present at the workshop when doing the reaction (either by use of burrows, military commands, or through the use of the manager workshop screen). Then when you do the reaction, pokemon who are affected by the syndrome evolve and those who aren't affected don't do anything.
Oh, like this? I'm not sure if this is right but I think this is what you mean.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

and of course:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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AceSV

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2016, 10:35:27 pm »

What about the new d:details system?  Or if the pokemon is in a cage, you could do the old fashioned workshop-stockpile link. 

At the least, I think you can make it some sort of reaction class or extract class so that only a "stone-able" pokemon is brought to the stone evolution labor.  I think it should be the same system as milk, wool and honey animals.

It would be nice if you could select an animal for evolution from the z-menu, like when butchering.  Maybe a DFHacker could make that happen. 



"-" next to stats is just a tool for the modder, only the numbers do anything in the simulation.  The original modder might have just left them after copy and pasting. 

I wonder how the original stats were compiled.  Pokemon doesn't have an equivalent of the Endurance stat and DF doesn't have an equivalent of Special.  And then there's Gait vs Agility.  And of course, DF's material properties make as much a difference as stats.  Claws made of iron or skin made of stone would have a more direct impact on pokemon performance than the Strength and Toughness stats would.  Maybe you should see if Putnam would be interested in this project. 
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Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2016, 10:56:28 pm »

What about the new d:details system?  Or if the pokemon is in a cage, you could do the old fashioned workshop-stockpile link. 

At the least, I think you can make it some sort of reaction class or extract class so that only a "stone-able" pokemon is brought to the stone evolution labor.  I think it should be the same system as milk, wool and honey animals.
That's what I thought too but, I checked the wiki and I didn't find anything. That's why I said I think, I'm not 100% sure but I think, that the farmer's stuff is hardcoded.

It would be nice if you could select an animal for evolution from the z-menu, like when butchering.  Maybe a DFHacker could make that happen. 
Haha that would be great. I'm not a DFHack wizard but I'm sure someone, somewhere is :p

"-" next to stats is just a tool for the modder, only the numbers do anything in the simulation.  The original modder might have just left them after copy and pasting. 

I wonder how the original stats were compiled.  Pokemon doesn't have an equivalent of the Endurance stat and DF doesn't have an equivalent of Special.
Right, but, what did they copy and paste from? It would be nice to have a more standard way of coming up with numbers. Maybe we can write a python/js/whatever script that takes a pokemon's base stats, and turns them into a ratio out of the maximum possible base stat, and then multiplies it by something to come up with the DF-equivalents.

And then there's Gait vs Agility.  And of course, DF's material properties make as much a difference as stats.  Claws made of iron or skin made of stone would have a more direct impact on pokemon performance than the Strength and Toughness stats would. 
Gaits do need to be done honestly. I definitely am starting to think maybe we should take a look at the current existing Pokemon before trying to add new ones, and getting them all up to speed -- literally ;)

Maybe you should see if Putnam would be interested in this project.
Ohhh, welllllll, I'm not sure if Putnam quite remembers me but, him and I (along with Hugo_the_Dwarf) have an interesting, and slightly unpleasant history... Having other modders would be nice, but I definitely don't want to just dump a project like this onto somebody. It gets overwhelming so quickly, as Monk12, Old Greg, and myself have learned in the past. I tried to reboot this project like 4 years ago and failed because it became way too overwhelming alone. And I was kinda young back then to be honest.
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darkflagrance

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2016, 11:59:01 pm »

I feel that many people might not be able to notice fine differences between carefully plotted out physical strength, endurance, toughness etc. scales. In the interest of efficiency, it might be better to use one or two scales for any pokemon that don't have scales, one for powerful pokemon and one for weak pokemon. You would give powerful pokemon the high scales and weak pokemon the low scales; even a pokemon normally thought of as having high special would be given high scales for physical traits to simulate power. There is precedent for this: many spinoff games ignore how stats are distributed in the main games. This would allow more rapid testing/development for now and allow faster creation of new pokemon without relying on a python script being developed.

Alternatively, if we are going for a python script, the goal might be to take as much information about a given pokemon as possible and output a creature: maybe things like size, gender, etc. could be inputs to a hypothetical script. A python script would only require a properly formatted input source like a csv of pokemon names and traits, and it would ideally be able to output basic pokemon creature entries that could be customized later (with name, castes, and a basic body).

For gaits, I would recommend using perhaps three sets of gaits: one for fast pokemon, one for normal pokemon, and one for fliers (essentially legendary climber because flight is broken on anything in a civ). This would be easy to implement without relying on a script to convert speed/typing/ability into gait.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 12:07:14 am by darkflagrance »
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Roboson

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #83 on: April 21, 2016, 12:16:24 am »

-snip-
How would you include an animal in a reaction though? I know the farmer's workshop does it but I think that's hardcoded, I'm not seeing anything in the wiki.

-snip-

You can't put a specific animal in the reaction. However, there is an alternative method. You make the syndrome only effect a specific pokemon. Then you make sure that pokemon is present at the workshop when doing the reaction (either by use of burrows, military commands, or through the use of the manager workshop screen). Then when you do the reaction, pokemon who are affected by the syndrome evolve and those who aren't affected don't do anything.
Oh, like this? I'm not sure if this is right but I think this is what you mean.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

and of course:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I was never stellar at workshops, but I don't see anything wrong with it. It seemed like everything is there. Have you tried it in game to see if it works?

I feel that many people might not be able to notice fine differences between carefully plotted out physical strength, endurance, toughness etc. scales. In the interest of efficiency, it might be better to use one or two scales for any pokemon that don't have scales, one for powerful pokemon and one for weak pokemon. You would give powerful pokemon the high scales and weak pokemon the low scales; even a pokemon normally thought of as having high special would be given high scales for physical traits to simulate power. There is precedent for this: many spinoff games ignore how stats are distributed in the main games. This would allow more rapid testing/development for now and allow faster creation of new pokemon without relying on a python script being developed.

Alternatively, if we are going for a python script, the goal might be to take as much information about a given pokemon as possible and output a creature: maybe things like size, gender, etc. could be inputs to a hypothetical script. A python script would only require a properly formatted input source like a csv of pokemon names and traits, and it would ideally be able to output basic pokemon creature entries that could be customized later (with name, castes, and a basic body).

For gaits, I would recommend using perhaps three sets of gaits: one for fast pokemon, one for normal pokemon, and one for fliers (essentially legendary climber because flight is broken on anything in a civ). This would be easy to implement without relying on a script to convert speed/typing/ability into gait.

I think I prefer the difference between pokemon approach. Doing sets may save time, but also it would make the pokemon interchangable and there wouldn't be a point to getting variety. The thing about pokemon is that they are all different, and I think making them into sets runs counter to that idea. While spin-offs may ignore stats, DF has the potential to really simulate their stats and make each pokemon have unique strengths and weaknesses. I think, more than anything, it will add a feeling to the game that each pokemon is worth having.

The same can be said for gaits. Using sets is a way to crank out fast cookie-cutter raws, but that makes for a cookie cutter game. Furthermore, some pokemon have unique walks and others slither or crawl. Using a set for fast, normal, and fliers would lead to some very incorrect gaits.
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Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #84 on: April 21, 2016, 12:51:31 am »

I see. Im both for and against both. Cookie cutter raws are no fun honestly. Yet taking a full day to do one Pokémon will take ages before we get any progress. I personally think we should use a mix of both. Having a script to give us the values we want will save a lot of time, and then fleshing out the details, giving them unique parts based on their actual beings will add flavor. That and attacks, which I really enjoy making. They all are unique (mostly lol), and that definitely should be represented in this mod. I just don't want to take a month to get through first gen. You know? Idk like I said, I'm for and against both. And a script to aid us - but not fully automate everything - may be our best option.
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AceSV

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2016, 08:32:37 am »

If you're careful about it, a cookie cutter system can still be versatile enough to make everything unique.  Like let's say you've got 8 Mighty Glacier pokemon, you can still have an MG that can fly, an MG that can swim, an MG with fire breath, an MG with poison breath, an MG with martial trance, an MG that shoots rocks, an MG that shoots water, an MG with iron horns, etc.  And you could have different tiers of MG, so a geodude might be MG1, a graveler MG2, a golem MG3.  And then Golem might be MG3 with rock skin, while Aggron is MG3 with iron skin and Machamp is MG3 with tough skin and rock shattering fists. 
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Roboson

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2016, 09:47:20 am »

I'm for the script idea. A script would  use the stats given to pokemon and transfer them into DF stats in order to reflect their strengths and weaknesses. By just dumping the stats and arbitrarily assigning tiers and block statistics, we would lose out on one really big aspect of the pokemon games and world. Even if we tossed special interactions on top, then its just about those interactions. Look the way I see it there is two ways this could shake out:

1) Without premade stat charts
"I'm going to put Machamp in my military because he seems strong and tough. Next I'll add a hitmonlee because its fast and could make a good wrestler. This is going to be the coolest Pokemon military ever."

2) With premade stat charts
"I'm adding golem and chansey to my military because they both have tier one stat charts. And since all pokemon with tier one stats are basically the same from a combat strength standpoint, all I have to do is check to see which are best. Then all the useless pokemon go to the slave pits."

Even with special interactions like firebreath, web spinning, and other powerful moves it just becomes a complicated game of rock paper scissors. Fire beats webs, and made of metal beats fire, but webs beat metal (or something like that).


Now thats not the end of the world, and its an easy corner to cut that will save a lot of time and effort. And if we don't care about trying to give each pokemon stats that make it different from other pokemon then that's fine, it's not something that has to be done to make a decent pokemon mod. But I think, if there is anyone with scripting knowlege in this thread, then making a script to do all the work sounds like a good idea to me.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2016, 12:20:36 pm »

There are ways to pull off exact stats mathematically, but personally I think the game would be more fun if it was done organically, paying more attention to how the Mon should behave rather than how it does in the game.  Keep in mind that DF's combat system is completely different from Pokémon's, so when you translate one system to the other the usefulness of any given Mon might not quite match up.  (Apart from material strength, you also have to consider body size, configuration, body parts used in an attack, and the absence or presence of weak points.)

Toxicshadow

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2016, 01:19:06 pm »

There are ways to pull off exact stats mathematically, but personally I think the game would be more fun if it was done organically, paying more attention to how the Mon should behave rather than how it does in the game.  Keep in mind that DF's combat system is completely different from Pokémon's, so when you translate one system to the other the usefulness of any given Mon might not quite match up.  (Apart from material strength, you also have to consider body size, configuration, body parts used in an attack, and the absence or presence of weak points.)
The issue becomes balance. The games had it pretty much figured out in terms of balance. And personally I don't trust my own ability to come up with 'organic' numbers that make sense. I think too much in relation to other pokemon, which would lead to "Oh I don't want this one to be stronger than this one so I guess this usually really good pokemon is getting nerf'd."

Body size and parts and all are very much so used in DF. That's one of those details we need to flesh out by hand of course.



Not going to quote you because it was a long post but, Roboson, I totally agree with you. I much prefer the first option.

I can do the scripting, give me a few minutes. I think I have the math stuff figured out anyways :p

Hold on, I can't install Python on this computer and I'm about to go out the door but, the math is essentially base stat / 255 (the max possible base stat), multiplied by each number in a 'maximum' range. For example this range could be 4400:4500:4600:4700:4800:4900:5000, personally I wouldnt go with that as there wouldn't be much variation at all but it works for this example.

So the stat equivalents to DF, I think, could be: Strength/Attack , Agility/Speed, Toughness/Defense , Endurance/HP , Recuperation/(Sp. A + Sp. D / 2) , Disease Resist/(Sp. A + Sp. D / 2). Note: the (Sp. A + Sp. D / 2) could be possibly replaced by 'special' in first gen. pokemon. Normally it's the same thing. I do wish we could give Sp. Attack it's own real usage honestly.

So really quickly lets just do that for Bulbasaur's Strength range. Base strength = 45. 45/255 = (0.1764705882352941).
4400*(0.1764705882352941):4500*(0.1764705882352941):4600*(0.1764705882352941):4700*(0.1764705882352941):4800*(0.1764705882352941):4900*(0.1764705882352941):5000*(0.1764705882352941)

That equals: 776:794:811:829:847:864:882. That takes forever to do in a calculator so, I wouldn't recommend doing it by hand. Also if we decide to go with this method we're going to need to go through and do it for all of them. And lastly, this is just for the phys att ranges. We also need gaits and such.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 01:55:52 pm by Toxicshadow »
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Managrimm

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Re: Community-Driven Mod Ideas for a Pokemon Mod Reboot?
« Reply #89 on: April 22, 2016, 11:43:29 am »

Gonna throw this out here for you guys: unless DF has changed since I was modding my Pokemon, you can't have a stone evolve a Pokemon that's already evolved once - at least not through typical transformations. A creature that's transformed is immune to further transformations. That's why all my Pokemon worked on a timer. This is how they worked.

They had an interaction they'd randomly activate while wandering around. It queued a transformation to happen after a certain number of turns and then another transformation to happen exactly 1 turn later. So the first transformation would happen, but the second wouldn't until the first wore off. It was queued up after the current transformation due to how transformations work. So when the first transformation wore off, the second and permanent one would take effect. That's why you can't use a Moon Stone evolve to a Nidorino that evolved from a Nidoran. The Nidoking transformation will just get queued up after the Nidorino one, which is presumably permanent, so the Nidorino transformation will prevent the Nidoking transformation from happening.

Just something to consider as you move forward.
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