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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released  (Read 39758 times)

Heretic

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2016, 03:28:36 pm »

Hmm. Thanks Toady! Probadly, next time i will send results of my testing to thread like this.
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jecowa

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2016, 04:21:02 am »

I will miss my time travel cabin.
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Rumrusher

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2016, 05:26:53 am »

so with site building I hope you address the issue of outsiders unable to claim a site they just made. because seems silly that you can't retire in the home you built just because you didn't come from a major civ.
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Max™

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2016, 07:09:53 am »

Most operating systems and computers sold since... what, 2006~ are 64 bit or at the very least capable of running it.

Windows still has some 32 bit versions floating around (does 10 have one?) but there is no reason to not use the 64 bit version if it is available: larger addressable memory allocation (the 2~3 nominal ~4 Gb maximum limit goes up to something ridiculous like 2^64 bytes, exabytes I think? waaaay more than we'll have at home in the near-term, suffice to say), stronger security, plus you can still use whatever old 32 bit stuff you have floating around via suitable compatibility layers (which are also more secure generally), while on a 64 bit OS.

So in simplified language: short-term there will probably be room to maintain a 32 bit version, but having the ability to open up more than 4 Gb of RAM at a time means it will probably end up being used in various ways that could wind up crippling either the performance of the 32 bit versions or hinder the development of the game as a whole trying to limit what the 64 bit version uses to keep it fully backwards compatible. If this is taken into account when setting up the 32 bit and 64 bit versions it can be handled well, and modern compilers help a lot here, but ultimately the game will be able to grow better with the extra room and addresses available I'd think.

As was said above, the first step will probably be a check regarding save compatibility, though I am curious what the actual percent of df players on a 32 bit OS is at this point.
A 32-bit OS cannot run 64-bit programs (at least not without a much slower emulation layer).
Didn't say they could.

Quote
If there are separate 32- and 64-bit versions of DF, they shouldn't have separate feature sets (and they probably won't, given how hard that would be to maintain). I can't think of any features that require more than 4 GB of memory - a larger addressable memory space would simply allow larger forts, worlds, etc., but the vast majority of players never hit 4 GB. Some hit 2 GB on Windows, but that's still pretty uncommon, although it's definitely worth fixing.

Anyway, making a 64-bit version does have advantages (dependency headaches on Linux, practically no limit on memory, etc.), but there aren't game features that aren't possible with just a 32-bit version.
Didn't say there would be features specifically, just the ability to hold more data and work on it at a time. With a 257x257 you can start to run into issues with RAM during longer world-gens alone, never mind when you try to walk into a town that exists in this world which has several thousand units that want to path around and chitchat and so forth.

Do you need 500x500 or 1000x1000 worlds with tens of thousands of years of history?

No, not really, but it would be neat nonetheless.

Though that did make me think of a feature which actually kinda does need more address space: alternate planes/worlds/etc would be even more limited if forced to share a capped chunk of memory than they would with the addition of another 4 or 8 GB. Having them behave as functioning active worlds which evolve as you play would not be easy to fit into the current 2~4 GB limits.

A 257x257 map is more like a small country or US state. West Virginia, Iceland, Sri Lanka type scales as I recall.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2016, 11:57:25 am »

Let's not forget the possibility of exponential increases in complexity, like giving each individual creature their own version of events, allowing lies to be told and rumors to evolve naturally.  Right now, knowledge of events exist and some people know about them, but adding true deception and social engineering will throw a whole new dimension of complexity into the game, which will require a lot more memory to hold.

Dirst

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2016, 12:19:04 pm »

Let's not forget the possibility of exponential increases in complexity, like giving each individual creature their own version of events, allowing lies to be told and rumors to evolve naturally.  Right now, knowledge of events exist and some people know about them, but adding true deception and social engineering will throw a whole new dimension of complexity into the game, which will require a lot more memory to hold.
"No man has a good enough memory to be a successful liar."  -- Abraham Lincoln.

A world simulator with gigabytes of available memory, however, has a decent shot.
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(0.42 & 0.43) The Earth Strikes Back! v2.15 - Pay attention...  It's a mine!  It's-a not yours!
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lethosor

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2016, 03:48:25 pm »

The thing is, if DF requires more than 4 GB of memory, it will be practically unusable for a lot of people with machines without a ton of memory. Of course, it's definitely a good thing to make it not crash if it does hit that number, for people who want (and are capable of running) huge worlds, maps, etc., but it's not really reasonable for DF to require 4GB+ in a typical world (unless the average machine's memory capacity improves dramatically, which would take a while).

There are ways to reduce memory usage, for what it's worth, even with those sorts of new features. For instance, only certain chunks of the world are kept in memory at one time - the rest (if they need to be saved) are saved to disk. The usefulness of this tactic varies depending on what sort of information is involved, though - I'm not sure how it would apply to the individual-version-of-events feature (although that would be a really interesting feature, by the way).

A 32-bit OS cannot run 64-bit programs (at least not without a much slower emulation layer).
Didn't say they could.
Oh, did you mean most computers can run 64-bit OS's and programs? That's not entirely true - there are some computers (albeit less common) that still have 32-bit CPUs, which can't run 64-bit code without emulation. Whether it's worth dropping support for them or not is up to Toady (I personally wouldn't use 64-bit support as a reason to drop 32-bit support, but it depends on how much work it would be to maintain, I guess).

Yeah, worldgen can take up more memory than normal gameplay (or less, depending on what you're doing in-game, but normally more).
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There was a typo in the siegers' campfire code. When the fires went out, so did the game.

greycat

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2016, 04:54:55 pm »

The thing is, if DF requires more than 4 GB of memory, it will be practically unusable for a lot of people with machines without a ton of memory. Of course, it's definitely a good thing to make it not crash if it does hit that number, for people who want (and are capable of running) huge worlds, maps, etc., but it's not really reasonable for DF to require 4GB+ in a typical world (unless the average machine's memory capacity improves dramatically, which would take a while).

Clearly it'll depend on world size and history length, as much as the memory footprint of individual historical figures.  That said, a typical brand new desktop PC in retail stores today has at least 4 GB of memory.  Laptops may have a bit less.
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Max™

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2016, 05:39:29 pm »

Another 32 bit limitation which only really matters to modders with a taste for hyperviolence like Putnam: 2^32 -1 is an attribute cap right now.

The "what is your cpu bitness" poll over in df general discussion has 2 votes for 32 bit, like 14 for 64 bit. As is pointed out in the thread, you gotta go back to something like a Pentium 4 to find a 32 bit CPU, and if your computer runs df at all with a chip that old, that's amazing. You can find more modern systems in the trash.
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lethosor

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2016, 07:19:13 pm »

Another 32 bit limitation which only really matters to modders with a taste for hyperviolence like Putnam: 2^32 -1 is an attribute cap right now.
That's not a 32-bit limitation - an "int" is 32 bits on a 64-bit architecture, at least with the toolchains Toady uses, and using 64-bit integers is entirely possible (DF already does in a few places, in fact). There's really no way to tell exactly what integer types Toady is using, but he's said that he uses fixed-width types in at least some places, which wouldn't vary in size across 32-bit and 64-bit builds (which, incidentally, would make compatibility easier).

It's hard to tell the exact percentage of DF players on a 32-bit OS, of course, since all of the downloads are 32-bit.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 07:24:01 pm by lethosor »
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DFHack - Dwarf Manipulator (Lua) - DF Wiki talk

There was a typo in the siegers' campfire code. When the fires went out, so did the game.

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2016, 11:06:14 pm »

Ah, didn't know it was a chosen limit rather than bumping into the cap from the software bitness, but like I said, the poll over in the df general is at 65 votes last I saw with 3 for 32 bit. We can assume that those 3 are for sure on a 32 bit OS, though I'm still not as sure that they're on a 32 bit CPU.
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Heretic

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2016, 01:15:35 am »

The thing is, if DF requires more than 4 GB of memory, it will be practically unusable for a lot of people with machines without a ton of memory. Of course, it's definitely a good thing to make it not crash if it does hit that number, for people who want (and are capable of running) huge worlds, maps, etc., but it's not really reasonable for DF to require 4GB+ in a typical world (unless the average machine's memory capacity improves dramatically, which would take a while).

There are ways to reduce memory usage, for what it's worth, even with those sorts of new features. For instance, only certain chunks of the world are kept in memory at one time - the rest (if they need to be saved) are saved to disk. The usefulness of this tactic varies depending on what sort of information is involved, though - I'm not sure how it would apply to the individual-version-of-events feature (although that would be a really interesting feature, by the way).

A 32-bit OS cannot run 64-bit programs (at least not without a much slower emulation layer).
Didn't say they could.
Oh, did you mean most computers can run 64-bit OS's and programs? That's not entirely true - there are some computers (albeit less common) that still have 32-bit CPUs, which can't run 64-bit code without emulation. Whether it's worth dropping support for them or not is up to Toady (I personally wouldn't use 64-bit support as a reason to drop 32-bit support, but it depends on how much work it would be to maintain, I guess).

Yeah, worldgen can take up more memory than normal gameplay (or less, depending on what you're doing in-game, but normally more).
A lot of memory or low FPS - choise is yours.
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lethosor

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2016, 04:29:02 pm »

A 64-bit version would not be likely to have a noticeable impact on FPS. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "a lot of memory" - of course, allowing DF to use more memory is a good thing, but my point was that an average computer (assuming 4-8GB of memory) would start to have difficulty with DF if it starts using several gigabytes of memory, so assuming that DF will begin requiring this amount of memory because it can isn't entirely accurate.

Anyway, there are better places (e.g. DF General Discussion) for this sort of talk. I haven't been following a lot of these DF announcement threads recently, but this thread is probably best left for discussion about the actual release, rather than discussions about 64-bit versions.
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There was a typo in the siegers' campfire code. When the fires went out, so did the game.

Heretic

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2016, 12:50:47 am »

A 64-bit version would not be likely to have a noticeable impact on FPS. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "a lot of memory" - of course, allowing DF to use more memory is a good thing, but my point was that an average computer (assuming 4-8GB of memory) would start to have difficulty with DF if it starts using several gigabytes of memory, so assuming that DF will begin requiring this amount of memory because it can isn't entirely accurate.

Anyway, there are better places (e.g. DF General Discussion) for this sort of talk. I haven't been following a lot of these DF announcement threads recently, but this thread is probably best left for discussion about the actual release, rather than discussions about 64-bit versions.
Addition memory meant that computer can save some special data for faster calculation - for example, more temporary data in RAM beside of savingit to disk that is really high-cost for calculation speed.
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greycat

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.02 Released
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2016, 09:37:18 am »

you gotta go back to something like a Pentium 4 to find a 32 bit CPU, and if your computer runs df at all with a chip that old, that's amazing.

The original Intel Core line, including Core Duo, is 32-bit.  That's pretty much the end of the road for the i386 architecture in standard desktop PCs, with the Intel Core 2 and beyond using the 64-bit amd64 architecture.

(On the AMD side, the K8 series were the first of the amd64 processors, and for obvious reasons, AMD has been doing amd64 for quite a while.  Intel, though it's more popular right now, was playing catch-up for some time.)
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