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Author Topic: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions  (Read 61503 times)

ldog

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2016, 09:09:38 pm »

My current understanding is that once the work order is accepted, 1 mason is designated (to 1 workshop) to make your 10x door task & they will continue to do that task until the order is satisfied. If, however, the total order number is /decreased/ (to eg 1), that will assign any available mason to any available 'shop to produce 1 door.. until the desired amount (10 doors) is reached. Sadly I haven't yet found a way to change the initial quantity order :(

OK, the assorted masons are only making 1 door per day, but they could be doing other things too (eg chairs, tables, coffins etc) when they've finished their door, once you set up the orders. Therefore, for a continuous stock of <item> it would seem to be best policy to set the appropriate work order to a low quantity (eg 1 or 2) daily, & adjust potential amounts (ie totals) later.

Ofc, if you want x amount of <item> created regularly by a specific worker, then use your method (possibly combined with workshop profiles) :)

I /think/ I've got that right; can anyone with more experience with the new management work orders correct me?

Yeah, that sounds about right. I've been automating all the things, but orders are for 1 item even though the condition may be 10 or 30 or 100 (can never have too much steel)
Even where it's only 1 workshop and 1 dwarf, it allows other needed jobs to run in between so you don't have to worry too much about running out of any 1 thing.

I just never trusted the DFHack workflow plugin enough to use it, so I'm surprised how well the new vanilla system works.
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ldog

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2016, 10:59:17 am »

Ok so I am seeing more issues with the multiple workshop assignments now.
Most shops I do 1 or 2 of. It seemed both masons shops were being kept fairly busy, but then I have standing orders for just about every piece of rock furniture & doors/grates/hatches.
I finally got my usual 4 magma smelters and 2 forges up and so started bulk orders, and that is where I am seeing only 1 of each being used. Steel production just does not keep up. I am thinking the solution is to assign each smelter all the jobs directly; so a smelt magnetite, coke, pig iron, steel for each, all with the same conditions. Probably the same for forges. Being able to make jobs directly from a workshop profile is a big plus.

Also I see you need to be careful about conditions when you want specific materials used as well - for example I want all my barrels made of featherwood, and I have the condition check available featherwood logs - what I had forgotten to do was make the job to make featherwood barrels instead of just wood barrels (this is from the job manager screen details as opposed to the job conditions details). Otherwise what it was doing was seeing there were enough featherwood logs available, but then just using whatever log. OTOH I want ash/charcoal to be made out of "crap" wood, which you can set the details on even though it won't show, so I'm not positive it works right. Might still need to do seperate linked piles for that kind of control.

Definitely would be nice to be able to change the amount without having to delete and recreate the job. Would also be nice to be able to do exclusions; featherwood out for ash, everything else fair game, etc.
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For example, if you wanted to check if a unit was eligible to be a politician or a car salesman, you'd first want to verify that there is no soul present...

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mikekchar

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2016, 03:42:33 am »

First, I wanted to say thanks for this thread.  I'm a new DF player (and this is my first forum post), so I didn't realise that the work orders were new.  They are so awesome that I was wondering why there was little discussion about them on the wiki.

I've been playing around with these and have discovered that you can very nearly implement a full on kanban system.  For those who don't know, kanban is a "just in time manufacturing" system that is meant to "pull" production through the system.  The idea is that you maintain certain inventory levels and when the inventory drops below a certain threshold, you order the upstream workshop to produce enough to fill the void.  This, in turn, depletes *their* inventory levels which causes them to order their upstream workshop to produce inputs.  As you can see, there is a ripple effect and an order at the far end causes production at the front end.  You can maintain inventory all the way along the production to smooth out delays in production.

The word "kanban" is just the japanese word for "sign board".  The way it is implemented in real life is that each workshop has a bin.  When you want to order parts from the upstream workshop, you write the order on a sign board (often a chalk board) and wheel the cart over.  The receiving workshop fulfils the order, puts it in the kart and wheels it back to the ordering workshop (along with the signboard).  This might be looking somewhat familiar.

There are some very interesting things about kanban workflow and inventory levels that are modelled very well with the DF work order system.  Normally in a kanban system, you can dial the "responsiveness" of the system by "limiting the work in progress".  This basically means limiting the number of things your are ordering.  Often in a kanban system, the number of parts you order is known as the "kanban for the order".  So if you order 5 parts, then the kanban is 5.  You can see that the number of items you build in your work order is directly analagous to the kanban.  If I order 5 lye, then the kanban for the lye order is 5.  Smaller kanbans mean that you can respond quickly since your workshop isn't monopolised by a big order.  However there is an inefficiency for ordering (it takes time to process the order), so you have to balance that when you have high demand.  In DF terms, work orders are scheduled every day and filled based on the priority of the order, so if there are things that you know you need to keep filled up all the time (like charcoal if you don't have magma), then you should maintain a high kanban.

In a kanban system each workshop has both an input inventory (stockpile) and an output inventory (stockpile).  Input inventories give to the workshop and output inventories take from the work shop.  Another important issue with stockpiles is modelled very well in DF.  Some stockpiles "want to be full" while other stockpiles "want to be empty".  An output stockpile wants to be empty and it should give its output to one or more other stockpiles.  An input stockpile wants to be full and it should take from one or more other stockpiles.  In this way you always have someplace to put finished parts and you always have the parts you need to do work.

Understanding the level of inventory you want in each stockpile is critical.  I've been realising that using this method you can get by with ridiculously small inventory levels.  Normally I make 5x5 workshop rooms.  Since the workshop is 3x3, it gives me 16 squares (or 15 squares plus a wheelbarrel) for an input inventory.  You can use the workshop itself for the output inventory and the only other thing you need are distribution stockpiles for certain situations like the output of a farm.  You should then use the 'p'roduct condition for the work order to maintain the output inventory level.  If it's going directly to another input stockpile, then the inventory level should be 16 - the work order size (kanban size) so that you don't over produce.  For many things, it's perfectly fine to have an output inventory size of 2-3.  For example, you will never use more than 3 lye at a time probably, so there is no point in making more.  Also keep in mind that production takes time, so there is usually no point in maintaining an inventory level greater than 1 day of production in the next stage (unless you just want to smooth over labour shortages).

Probably nobody has read this far, but I will finish off with one more thing.  Most work orders can specify details.  It is important to 'q' up the work order, then press 'd' to specify the details, *then* add conditions.  This will make your conditions use the correct details without having to search for them.  One of the insights I had recently is that it is best to concentrate on a single type of input.  For example, when making bags you should *always* make pig tail bags.  This allows you to use "empty pig tail bags" as the input condition for other work orders (instead of "bags and boxes").  Similarly, *always* make rope reed shoes, silk socks, etc, etc.  This is also true for things like rock pots so that you don't accidentally make a whole whack of marble rock pots.

Finally, only use bins and barrels for very specific circumstances for inputs.  The more specific rule is this: if you want to sort/segregate things, never put it in a bin or a barrel.  If you want to sort/segregate only one type of something, never put any of the other types in bins and barrels.  Because you will end up with many, many specific stockpiles as long as you never overlap you can get away with putting charcoal and chert blocks in bins, but not marble blocks for instance.  But it means you can never have an unsegregated stockpile (which is actually fine).  But mostly you do not need bins or barrels because the Just In Time manufacturing process means you can have really small inventory levels.
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daagar

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2016, 07:26:38 pm »


OK, the assorted masons are only making 1 door per day, but they could be doing other things too (eg chairs, tables, coffins etc) when they've finished their door, once you set up the orders. Therefore, for a continuous stock of <item> it would seem to be best policy to set the appropriate work order to a low quantity (eg 1 or 2) daily, & adjust potential amounts (ie totals) later.


Thank you, I think this is what I was asking for verification on. What you state here seems to align with what I'm seeing, though it isn't quite the behavior I was originally expecting. If I set the policy to be 1 but I want a stock of 10, I was expecting it to send the order (for 1) to as many mason workshops as is available, up to 10. As you confirmed however, the policy is _1 per day_ so regardless of the number of workshops available, there will only ever be one order per day given. Reading the policy as "1 per day" rather than just as "1" does make it more clear. The funny thing is that when I used monthly orders, I was already reading it as a "X per month" and thought nothing of it - it was only daily that was giving me grief.

Reading mikekchar's post (I did read it all(!), though I will need to read it a few more times to digest it), from a true kanban perspective the way it is working is probably the correct way. For multiple masons to pull independently, you'd need your manager to oversee everything - from a gameplay perspective, you'd need a manager per industry and it would get crazy in a hurry. He's already spread thin enough approving the workorders as is!
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Qev

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2016, 06:57:05 pm »

Probably nobody has read this far, but I will finish off with one more thing.  Most work orders can specify details.  It is important to 'q' up the work order, then press 'd' to specify the details, *then* add conditions.  This will make your conditions use the correct details without having to search for them.  One of the insights I had recently is that it is best to concentrate on a single type of input.  For example, when making bags you should *always* make pig tail bags.  This allows you to use "empty pig tail bags" as the input condition for other work orders (instead of "bags and boxes").  Similarly, *always* make rope reed shoes, silk socks, etc, etc.  This is also true for things like rock pots so that you don't accidentally make a whole whack of marble rock pots.
Oh my Armok, I could kiss you.  :-*
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ldog

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2016, 06:22:49 pm »

Ok, so this isn't working out as great as I thought it was...
The cancellation spam is driving me insane.
The issue is that when the job fails it doesn't reset the conditions check, when all we had was 1 shot work orders, this was desired behavior, so that the job would eventually get finished when materials became available. With the ability to set permanant jobs it's just awful.
Anyone got any tips on mitigating this?
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fonzacus

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2016, 11:56:39 pm »

still fairly new, played a while back with workflow, now learning the manager orders. kudos to all you researchers.

id like to vote this for president, along with a sticky and a max priority search order on perpetual set to daily to help new players with micromanaging :3
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Qev

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2016, 03:54:32 pm »

Ok, so this isn't working out as great as I thought it was...
The cancellation spam is driving me insane.
The issue is that when the job fails it doesn't reset the conditions check, when all we had was 1 shot work orders, this was desired behavior, so that the job would eventually get finished when materials became available. With the ability to set permanant jobs it's just awful.
Anyone got any tips on mitigating this?
Just curious, but by 'permanent jobs' do you mean you are setting the number of jobs to 0 (ie. infinite) when creating the work order?  If so, that will repeat the job infinitely starting the very first time it meets the start conditions.

Unrelated question: is there a way to set a condition for "millable unrotten dye-producing plants"?  The only way I've gotten this to work up til now is to set it by specific plant material (dimple cup, etc). "dye-producing" really should be one of the traits...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 03:57:56 pm by Qev »
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Snafu

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2016, 05:59:19 pm »

Unrelated question: is there a way to set a condition for "millable unrotten dye-producing plants"?  The only way I've gotten this to work up til now is to set it by specific plant material (dimple cup, etc). "dye-producing" really should be one of the traits...
I'm unsure if this is what you're after, but (r)eagents for "dye thread" produces "Amount of unrotten dye items"..

Currentl;y I'm trying to figure out why my master leatherworker (or come to think of it, clothier) won't produce /any/ orders at his shop.. the manager order is unchecked & I can't force the manager to check it (I've tried changing managers) :(

If a max limit on number of orders has been introduced (possibly related to manager skill, ie Organisation) it's not affected me so far (v0.43.03x LNP used)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 06:06:17 pm by Snafu »
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ldog

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2016, 07:37:51 pm »

Ok, so this isn't working out as great as I thought it was...
The cancellation spam is driving me insane.
The issue is that when the job fails it doesn't reset the conditions check, when all we had was 1 shot work orders, this was desired behavior, so that the job would eventually get finished when materials became available. With the ability to set permanant jobs it's just awful.
Anyone got any tips on mitigating this?
Just curious, but by 'permanent jobs' do you mean you are setting the number of jobs to 0 (ie. infinite) when creating the work order?  If so, that will repeat the job infinitely starting the very first time it meets the start conditions.

Unrelated question: is there a way to set a condition for "millable unrotten dye-producing plants"?  The only way I've gotten this to work up til now is to set it by specific plant material (dimple cup, etc). "dye-producing" really should be one of the traits...

I meant permanant as opposed to the old style jobs we had (well still can have those too) that were 1 shot.
For example I have a job to smelt 1 magnetite whenever I have 1 or more magnetite, restart daily. I have these set individually on 4 magma smelters. So the problem is the jobs check, conditions match, job trys to run. However say I only had 3 magnetite, the 4th one cancels, but then it get put into the workshop queue again the next day instead of being rechecked for the now invalid condition.
It doesn't even need to be multiple shops though. Most shops I only have 1 of. For whatever reason in between the job being valid and attempted it becomes invalid (someone else uses given material for something) the manager still continues to rerun the job without checking the conditions again. Because if it rechecked the conditions it would find the job to be invalid at the moment.
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celem

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2016, 06:30:44 am »

Excellent work guys.  As a longtime designer of hands-off automated fortresses I've been sucked back again by this update only to find this golden thread.  Cheers!  Soon as I get home I can rig something up then set it spinning...

While I'm here. If a shop is linked to a specific pile then its logical conditions apply to said pile, not fortress stock yes?  One of my main challenges with hands-off is I cant make them gather resources since theres no way to designate so my booze order is going to have to work off number of drink-containing containers in pile X rather than availability of mats. (If thats possible, hope so, since I cant cut trees or mine rock I cant set container creation orders, these forts run hands-off for decades and a failure in my hacky booze solution is cause of like 50% of fails in previous versions)
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Qev

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2016, 04:55:59 pm »

I meant permanant as opposed to the old style jobs we had (well still can have those too) that were 1 shot.
For example I have a job to smelt 1 magnetite whenever I have 1 or more magnetite, restart daily. I have these set individually on 4 magma smelters. So the problem is the jobs check, conditions match, job trys to run. However say I only had 3 magnetite, the 4th one cancels, but then it get put into the workshop queue again the next day instead of being rechecked for the now invalid condition.
It doesn't even need to be multiple shops though. Most shops I only have 1 of. For whatever reason in between the job being valid and attempted it becomes invalid (someone else uses given material for something) the manager still continues to rerun the job without checking the conditions again. Because if it rechecked the conditions it would find the job to be invalid at the moment.

Huh, so it isn't cancelling the job until the next check, just delaying it?  I guess that's an oversight in the current implementation.  ???  I suppose you could, in the example above, set each smelter to check that there's enough ore for all four smelters before starting their single job, which should at least reduce the cancellation spam?

While I'm here. If a shop is linked to a specific pile then its logical conditions apply to said pile, not fortress stock yes?  One of my main challenges with hands-off is I cant make them gather resources since theres no way to designate so my booze order is going to have to work off number of drink-containing containers in pile X rather than availability of mats. (If thats possible, hope so, since I cant cut trees or mine rock I cant set container creation orders, these forts run hands-off for decades and a failure in my hacky booze solution is cause of like 50% of fails in previous versions)

Sadly, no: work order conditions apply to the entirety of the fortress' stocks, and ignores stockpile links and the like.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 04:59:28 pm by Qev »
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ldog

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2016, 02:18:49 am »

I meant permanant as opposed to the old style jobs we had (well still can have those too) that were 1 shot.
For example I have a job to smelt 1 magnetite whenever I have 1 or more magnetite, restart daily. I have these set individually on 4 magma smelters. So the problem is the jobs check, conditions match, job trys to run. However say I only had 3 magnetite, the 4th one cancels, but then it get put into the workshop queue again the next day instead of being rechecked for the now invalid condition.
It doesn't even need to be multiple shops though. Most shops I only have 1 of. For whatever reason in between the job being valid and attempted it becomes invalid (someone else uses given material for something) the manager still continues to rerun the job without checking the conditions again. Because if it rechecked the conditions it would find the job to be invalid at the moment.

Huh, so it isn't cancelling the job until the next check, just delaying it?  I guess that's an oversight in the current implementation.  ???  I suppose you could, in the example above, set each smelter to check that there's enough ore for all four smelters before starting their single job, which should at least reduce the cancellation spam?

Yeah, even deleting the job from the workshop queue, it just puts it back in. That's what I'm thinking. I tried with the smelters, with only 1 set to the job with less material available. I guess the only other thing to try is chaining jobs and/or larger jobs on a monthly basis.
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fonzacus

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2016, 03:10:54 am »

quick question, is it possible to change order amount? sorry if it has been asked before.
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Qev

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Re: DF v.43 Work orders questions and suggestions
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2016, 04:37:46 am »

quick question, is it possible to change order amount? sorry if it has been asked before.
Nah, have to delete it and recreate it.  :(
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