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Poll

Which new (or returning) features do you want to see in Orc Fortress?

Combat magic (frost storms, rite of pain, etc.)
- 69 (27.5%)
Ritual magic (weather, timeflow, etc.)
- 53 (21.1%)
More high end industries locked by looted blueprints or trade (post ideas in thread?)
- 52 (20.7%)
GUI option to activate more nonplayable slaver civs (ashlanders, deep legion, etc.)
- 50 (19.9%)
Other (post ideas in thread?)
- 2 (0.8%)
Needs nothing, just fixes and tweaks are fine!
- 25 (10%)

Total Members Voted: 128


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Author Topic: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)  (Read 34254 times)

Aboshen

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #150 on: December 29, 2016, 08:16:44 pm »

So this may already be floating around. But has or can someone come up with a flow chart for the orcs? Im having a hard time following shaza guide also a embark profile to go with it would be awesome thank you in advance.
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Amostubal

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #151 on: December 29, 2016, 09:22:58 pm »

you want something like this:


or are you wanting an actual profile you can just load.

I'm working on a workflow chart for various orc industries, let me know what you are looking for in particular...

and when you say shaza quide.... do you mean the "orc quick guide.png" or the orc information in the manual.html, found in the masterwork folder or something else that I'm not sure of... some of that is outdated and in need of correction.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 09:31:27 pm by Amostubal »
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Weirdsound

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #152 on: December 29, 2016, 11:13:05 pm »

So I have a question. Does anybody use the goblin carpentry interactions to make a bunch of wood furniture using some metal anymore? It made sense in old MDF when wood was far harder to come by, but now that every tree drops a whole bunch of logs spending a few copper to save a few logs dosn't feel significant to me. Especially when the Kobold Bonecrimmer can turn a stack of 17 bones into 17 pieces of furniture.
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Metaltooth

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #153 on: December 30, 2016, 12:33:19 pm »

you want something like this:


or are you wanting an actual profile you can just load.

I'm working on a workflow chart for various orc industries, let me know what you are looking for in particular...

and when you say shaza quide.... do you mean the "orc quick guide.png" or the orc information in the manual.html, found in the masterwork folder or something else that I'm not sure of... some of that is outdated and in need of correction.

Can you make a embark profile that has enough for a beginner to the Orks?
Just something that has a good set of Ork skills and supplies to get a village started
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Aboshen

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #154 on: December 30, 2016, 06:14:57 pm »

you want something like this:


or are you wanting an actual profile you can just load.

I'm working on a workflow chart for various orc industries, let me know what you are looking for in particular...

and when you say shaza quide.... do you mean the "orc quick guide.png" or the orc information in the manual.html, found in the masterwork folder or something else that I'm not sure of... some of that is outdated and in need of correction.

<<Tarkuurb'narkuub Ghoshash Snazaga>> is what i ment by Shaza he has a tutorial for the orks but its out dated.

Embark wise that is exactly what i needed are there any other livestock besides the squigs?

Flowcharts im looking for basic survival to raiding. Thanks in advance
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Amostubal

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #155 on: December 30, 2016, 11:17:43 pm »

well that was a picture of the embark I was testing yesterday... spilled blood from the embark is not usable in the freelancer's shop.... 10p warpstone large gems are... but really its all useless since you can just cut rocks to make large gems from what you dig and sell that.

That pic was orcs with no extra creatures available in masterwork... basically a breeder squig you put in a holding pen, while you let the terrier roam your base looking for vermin.... they are not as good or fast as cats, but I've not seen cats that actually kill vermin available for orcs.  my current build adds in 4 terriers/1 breeder to replace what I usually would have done with 2 cats.

I can lay out my strategy if you want but it's probably not the best of strategies... if that is what your asking for.  I'm currently trying to fully grasp each of the industries the orcs have and how they can operate at the best capacity.  research and much !!science!! is needed.
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Weirdsound

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #156 on: December 31, 2016, 02:09:01 am »

Alright. Let me give this a try for you.

What animal options do you have? In my experience orcs will tame some different underground animals each worldgen, and I will have 2-3 pages of options.

If you have bearded cave keets, I'd take those instead of squigs, because they are also very cheap, can be harvested for wool, and lay 10 or so eggs at a time.

If you have plump helmet men, you want to take alot of those females and a male. They are cheap, have big litters, and you can brew their meat into wine, and you can eventually use captured dwarves to turn booze into ore.

If you have 'giant' animals available to you at a reasonable price, those are a good idea as well. Orcs can do alot more with animal bits than most other races. I think the Cragtooth Boar is always avaible to orcs, and can grow pretty big, so they can make a decent backup in that department.

Don't buy bugs at the start as pets. Bone and blood is much more useful to Orcs than Ichor and Chitin.

One thing that is important for my workflow, especially early on, that you don't have is pigtail seeds. Orcs can never have too much cloth. Eventually I will graduate to outside cloth plants that I can farm year round. In theory you can get almost any seed you need early on from the farmers stall, but I think it might be a bit random, and the first thing I always dig out is my kitchen and underground farms. I'd also consider more anvils, and six gold/silver bars rather than two.

Also, most of the unique Orc workshops require blocks, some rock blocks specifically, so I like to start with 10 magma safe stone which I cut into blocks ASAP. I'd rather have my miners train up digging sand before they graduate to stone, especially if you have the earth strikes back mod on. I don't think orcs have any way to pacify living stone, so if you have that mod, you will want your military ready before you go digging through too many rocks. You can actually play Orcs without needing to use mined stone.

Last thing: I usually tamper with civs and trade a bit. I like to turn white tigermen from the fortress defense mod on. They are a slaver civ, and as such allies to the orcs. I usually set them to send 2-3 caravans a year. Tigermen bring lots of animals to butcher (which are always good), and lots of copper bars (which are a godsend early on).

---

Guide:

(This ain't perfect. I'm still learning myself. But lets give this a shot. Also didn't have the app open, so I'm likely a bit off on some spelling and workshop names.)

Once you have your kitchen and farm extablished, have cut some trees and made some blocks, and perhaps harvested just a bit of stone and made some wood trap components to trade (the first orc caravan comes in the summer), you have a few main early objectives. You will need some blocks, cloth, leather, and the ability to make basic wood/stone furniture. Also, most Orc buildings need architecture, so make sure most of your dudes have that labor turned on.

A: Extablish control over the as much of the outside part of the map as possible. You will need a lot of outside space. Start on a fairly flat map if possible. I like to embark on a spot surrounded by water on 2-3 sides, so that all I have to do to make it fairly safe is dig a moat. If you can't just depend on water, you will need clay to build a wall. Build a kiln, and designate a clay gathering zone, and then gather clay on repeat. You can either use the raw clay to make a wall, or fire huge batches of bricks at the Orcish Factory, which I will explain elsewhere. Unless you start near a tower, it is likely the first real threat you will face is a megabeast sometime in year two, so there is no rush on this task. Just have a good idea where your wall/moat is going so you don't put things in that spot. If you don't have stone and need mechanisms for a drawbridge, you can build a common goods merchant stall for gold bars, silver bars, blocks, and I think some basic furniture like tables. There you can sell cloth and leather for coins, which you can redeem for mechanisms.

B: Establish your meat/leather/bone-metal industry. Build a large refuse stockpile, and set it to gather from outside. Near the refuse stockpile, build at least two of the following workshops: Butchers, Tanners, Leatherworkers, Tribal Wargear, Craftorcs Workshop, Boneforge, and Dismemberment Theater. The Tribal Wargear can just be built with blocks, same with the Boneforge, which can be found under furnances, not workshop. The dismemberment theater is the only tricky one here; It requires blocks, a ROCK table, and a ROCK traction bench. The dismemberment theater will be important eventually, but if you can't get it imeaditally, don't sweat it.

Save room for a Bonecrimmer's Shanty, which you will build as soon as your raider drydock is online. A bonecrimmer's shanty is the same height as an average workshop, but almost twice as long.

Once you have these buildings set up, you will want to start the following reactions if you have the resources and manpower free. None of it is vital quite yet, but it is nice to have a head start.

1: Harden Leather with Tallow at the Tribal Wargear. Uses Tanned Hides and Tallow to make higher quality hardened leather. I believe it uses the leatherworking labor instead of tanning.
2: Laminate Leather at the Tribal Wargear. Turns hardened leather into Lamlar leather, which I believe is comparable to some of the weaker metals. Uses the hardened leather from the above reaction, and your choice of wood, horn, or shell. I'd recomend wood, as it will likely be more pleantiful.
3: Create totems at the Craftshop. This is a vanilla interacton that requires a skull. You can sell these later for the bonemold coins that fuel your raiders.
4: Create large gems at the Craftshop. Orcs can turn wood, as well as pretty much any workable bodypart (bone, shell, horn, ect) into large gems at the craftshop. You can sell these later for a crapload of bonemold coins. A single large gem provides 4000 coins, which is almost enough to fund a single raid or buy a steel weapon on its own.

C: Get your early game metal industry online. Build two molten pits and an Orcish Factory. Molten Pits are furnaces, and need stone blocks. The factory needs a bunch of blocks, two serrated discs, and an anvil. If you didn't start with serrated discs, you can make them from bone at the boneforge. If you have the supplies and manpower, you should throw some bog standard smelters and forges in this area as well. All these buildings are large, and it is important you note the size. Your raiders drydocks will be the same size as the Orcish Factory, and all the merchant stands will be half the length of the factory, but the same height. You are going to want to put at least two drydocks and at least two merchant stands close together, preferably somewhere near your factory.

Start making Charcoal from wood at the molten pits (they are far more efficient than a vanilla wood furnace). If you have copper bars, make as many batches of copper daggers at the factory as possible; The factory can make five daggers from three copper, and your raiders will need to gather five metal weapons to make a raiding kit.

D: Get your raiders online. Build a siege workshop, two freelancers guilds, and 2-3 raiders drydocks. The siege workshop is vanilla and can be built from whatever. The other stuff requires blocks and furniture. I can't quite remember off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure the freelancers use a weapon rack, armor stand, and a table, and the drydock takes a few tables and a whole bunch of bags. You might consider putting an arms dealer nearby (it requires gold and silver bars) as well, and if you are using your Orcish factory to make bricks, you might want a second one of those near your drydocks to churn out copper daggers.

Begin the following reactions to prepare for raiding:
1: Build a bunch of ballista parts at the siege workshop.
2: Start cashing in stuff for bonemold coins. The best option is large gems for 4k Bonemold. Rope for 1k, and totems for 500 are okay as well. You will have better uses for grog and blood, and if you want to sell cloth, you might as well turn it into rope first, so I'd never use those three options.
3: Start gathering raid supplies. To raid you need a weapons kit, bonemold coins, and a boat. Bonemold coins are discussed above. Weapons kits and boats are both made right at the drydock. You should have at least one Drydock devoted to gathering supplies.
4: A weapons kit requires five metal weapons, and the drydock gives you the option to only collect specific metals so you don't have to worry about wasting your good stuff. Remember, 1 batch of daggers at the orcish factory = 1 weapons kit. All weapons kits function the same, so there is no point wasting steel when copper works. That said, if you can't get copper weapons for some reason, you can buy steel scimitars at the Freelancer's guild, or other weapons at the arms dealer. Not the most cost effective option, but it beats not being able to raid at all.
5: You have several options for making boats, but all boats work exactly the same. The basic longboat requires a whole bunch of logs and some ballista parts, and the other boat options simply allow you save wood by using other materials.

Once you have everything, it is time to start raiding. I'd recommend first rounding up two kobold workers and one goblin. These 'workers' are actually tin tools used to build special workshops, but you can turn them into actual units using the Ghetto Overseer workshop (which requires blocks and cages). I wouldn't recomend this, as orcs don't have a way to build non-orc sized clothes and gear. Once you have those, raid the elves and dwarves until you have an elf and a dwarf prisoner.

E: Use prisoners to establish heavy industry. Use one of your kobolds to establish a bonecrimmers shanty, which is, IMHO, the most powerful building the orcs have. (The succubi get a similar building that just requires blocks to build) The shanty can turn a pile of bone into a pile of furniture at a 1:1 ratio. Got a pile of 16 bones? Make 16 barrels, bins, beds, tables, chairs, ect with a single reaction. I usually wait for this workshop before I establish taverns, bedrooms, ect.

Your second kobold should be used to build the Kobold Thief. For a bag and a metal dagger, you can send the kobold thief out to gather advanced maps and plans (that your drydocks can use to raid more exotic places), hunt down bags of rare trinkets, or capture random prisoners at a low cost.

Your goblin should be used to extablish a tinkers shanty, which can be used to make copper, zinc, lead, and tin far more efficiently than a standard smelter. This should go near the molten pits you built earlier, which do the same for iron, pig iron, and steel. You can also make guns, bullets, and super advanced trap components here, but if you want those, I'd get a second goblin tinker later; You'll want one just for smelting. Note that the Tinker also requires an anvil.

The other special goblin and kobold buildings are unique and powerful in their own ways, so it is worth exploring them.

Build labor cells with your dwarf and elf prisoners. The dwarf gives metal ore in exchange for booze, and the elf give logs in exchange for meat. Put the dwarf with your metal industry, by your goblin tinker, smelters, and molten pits. Put the elf near your drydocks and siege workshop; It requires less space and manpower to put wood in a given location than a wood stockpile.

F: Advice on Caravans. Buy all the animals for sale and butcher them right away, with the following exception: Mamuks. Orcs bring them to the depot more often than not, and you might have started with one or two to haul your wagon. Always pasture a Mamuk somewhere with grass to graze and keep it alive until you have a legendary bone-carver. The reason for this is simple; These giants drop huge piles of high value bone.  A single masterwork Mamuk bone statue is worth about 2400 at the trade depot, and the next highest quality of statue is worth about 1000. You can get dozens and dozens of these high value statues from a single stack of Mamuk bones at the Bonecrimmer Shanty, so make sure that only your best bonecarver does the job, and that none of your other workshops waste the bonepile. A single Mamuk should easily give you a year's worth of trade goods this way.

Always buy all the meat and booze you can to feed your elf and dwarf labor cells. Always buy all the blood barrels for sale to make bloodsteel. Rope and large gems can be cashed in for bonemold coins to supply your raids.

If you have a surplus of trade goods, I'd buy all the metal upper body armor, helms, and shields I can afford. You can destroy these things at the molten pit for a chance to get potash, flux stone, copper ore, and iron ore.

G: Your first squad.  You might find some powerful metals early through the raiders, expecially if you are hitting the dwarves, but you want your first army online quick, I've had titans swim across the moat and slaughter my dudes as early as the second spring, and you could see an undead hoard sooner than that if you have a tower as your neighbor. You are unlikely to have enough metal and a good armorer to fully equip a squad that soon. Instead, you can produce a full set of good quality Llamlar leather armor at the Tribal Wargear; If you leave your leather workers on repeat hardening and laminating leather for a season, they should be at least decent. Build kite shields at the standard leatherworks.

As for weapons, you have several options. You can buy steel scimitars at the freelancers guild for bonemold coins, and other equipment at the arms dealer for gold, silver, copper, and platinum. If you want ranged weapons pistols and ammo are also available at the freelancers. If you have a good weaponsmith or bonecarver however, I recomend making your own weapons from Bloodsteel.

If your best crafter is a bonecarver, you want to handcraft a bloodsteel weapon at the Tribal Wargear. Hand crafted weapons require 1 unit of ash (cremate corpses at the Dismemberment theater, or get it the old fashioned way at the wood furnace), 1 bone animal bit, 1 barrel of blood (trade for it, or extract it from meat at the boneforge), one piece of Llamlar leather, and fuel. If you don't have enough blood, you can make bonemold weapons, which is closer to iron in quality, without it.

If you instead have a good weaponsmith, you will want to make bloodsteel bars at the boneforge and work them at the forge like you would with any other metal. To make bloodsteel you must first make bonemold. This is done at the boneforge, and requires ash, bonemeal, and fuel. You get bonemeal at the dismemberment theater by 'practicing diagnosis on a corpse'. In spite of the name, this reaction seems to use any single bit of a large animal, but in line with its name it trains and requires the diagnosis skill. If you have an orc of the Dreamwalker Caste, you will want him to be the one to make your bonemeal, as dreamwalkers are the only orcs who are not penalized to learning medical skills, and you might as well train your doctor as you make your weapons. Once you make your bonemold bars, you must turn them into bloodsteel, which again happens at the boneforge. That reaction takes a barrel of blood, ash, bonemold bars, and fuel. You must upgrade your bonemold bars to bloodsteel, as although you can handcraft bonemold weapons at the tribal wargear from raw materials, you cannot use bonemold bars at the forge.

I'd recommend making swords, as most orcs can learn how to use them with a skill bonus rather than a penalty. If you have been raiding the dwarves and have some heavy metal platinum or tungsten, I would check to see if you have any Oologs. This somewhat rare caste of massive orcs can use freaking mauls one handed with a shield, and as the only civilian skills they are good at are stonework and gems, which are industries orcs can mostly skip, you might as well give them the heaviest blunt weapon you can get and put them in your army.

Once you have all your soldiers geared up, you can set them up at the barracks as usual, or use the special orc training workshops. The bloodbowl pitch trains fighting, dodging, throwing, and kicking, uses a piece of leather for each reaction (which has a 95% chance of being reused each time), and is build out of wood logs. The sparring pit requires a weapon rack and armor stand, and it trains all other skills using training weapons and bucklers (which again, are only destroyed 5% of the time). Use workshop profile to ensure that only your soldiers use these training sites. I'd recommend training dodging or shields first, as your men will likely using mediocre Llamlar leather armor.
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Amostubal

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #157 on: December 31, 2016, 05:43:42 am »

Send weird sounds post shows how there are so many different ways to play.

Those are 2 nuggets of gold and silver makes 8 bars each.
Those 100 sand bags aren't for a glass industry.  I dump them.

I run with vanilla + orc fort your animal selections are all additional mods.

I'm an orc I don't farm and I don't operate ranches.  Lol.

Got to go to work. I'll post my route later.
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Weirdsound

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #158 on: December 31, 2016, 01:17:21 pm »

Eh. I play pretty much whatever the masterwork default is. I might turn of Earth Strikes Back, but thats it. Even then, you might find some giant animals in vanilla.
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Amostubal

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #159 on: December 31, 2016, 08:54:07 pm »

Okay I think I'll have to start newpost and work my way through an embark and post some images along with it... A sort of progression of an Amostubal setup orc fort...  basically I'm currently running it with certain personal modifications, all mentioned either in this post or the main dwarf fortress post.  I'll repost which ones I remember here:

1. [ITEMS_HARD] added to bonemold metal so I can craft my own bonemold coins.... considering just writing a reaction for the boneforge, but that's a lot of work, its rather useless anyways as its easier to just make rock gems for 4k bonemold coins.
2. changes to unpacking farmland loot, that corrects the strawberry plants so you can see them in your items, instead of seeing no name plants listed as [5]...
3. my smaller version of the language files (since I'm constantly testing to see if anything odd pops up, I run with my current version not the masterwork version).
4.  the rest of my fixes are for other races, I think.... if I remember a particular fix I put in that affects orcs I'll post it asap.

I'll start it tonight and post it every day for a week. Will link it here for posterity.  Maybe even write it as a story too side by side with the work.
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baldamundo

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #160 on: January 01, 2017, 05:36:46 pm »

Anyone else getting CTDs upon butchering squigs? I thought it was just woolly squigs doing it, but just had a crash butchering an eating squig as well.
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megahelmet

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #161 on: January 07, 2017, 02:36:15 am »

How do I replace the orc name generator? I'd like to change it the dwarven one. Every orc name has more than 20 characters in it. First and last, thats more than 40...and that's on the low side. Most of them have 60 or more characters for a full name. It gets in the way of being able to play the game.
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Amostubal

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #162 on: January 07, 2017, 04:44:47 am »

I'm sorry that you feel that way about that.  I was actually enjoying it, but its because of the low number of syllables that was present in the original 2000 words that the word generation required either the introduction of new syllables or increase in syllable length to complete across the larger language file.  We chose the latter to maintain the "sound" of the language.  To switch it is simple to switch languages...

1. Remove the language_ORC.txt file
2. take the language_XXXXX.txt you like and copy it
3. Rename the file language_ORC.txt
4. now go into your copy of that language file and change the [TRANSLATION:XXXXX] to [TRANSLATION:ORC]
5. Save the file

It will have to be done in the dwarf fortress\raw\objects folder to affect new world generations.  if you do it in the save file I cannot guarantee it will change anything, it may just lock the save, but if that is the case just put the original language_ORC.txt file back in.  You can just go straight english this way.

I'll look into seeing if any of the orc words can be simply reduced for a future edition... I'm already 2 editions of the language files past the one in the MW release and some 5000 ambiguous words and duplicates have been removed,  therefore the languages probably can have a few changes to reflect that...  I'll delve into the setup and see if a manual fix is possible, or a recasting of the entire language file is necessary.  I do know I had to increase word length from 7 to 10 to get enough syllables in for word generation last time, and allow repeat syllables...

Names are generally 3 words long, the first name being a singular word and the latter being an adjective/noun,noun/noun, or noun/adjective compound word. so even under the 7 limit which all the other languages had you still end up with some who have 21 letter names.  orcs jump upwards of 30(31 counting the space).  You think this is bad... wait till naga show up... they had syllables added and still had to have boundaries pushed to 13 length.
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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #163 on: January 07, 2017, 02:04:53 pm »

Thanks, that helped.

I understand the flavor, but it becomes a hindrance. Normally, when I nickname dwarves I let them keep their name. It adds a nice touch of personality. 'Urist McSmith', 'Zelota McMiner' etc, etc. But the orcs names are so long it just becomes an unintelligible mess that is hard to tell a part. (Not to mention the names don't fit on the screen.)

There is nothing wrong with having short names and few syllables. Zurgub. Burkil. Naglit. I'd argue that having names short enough for human players to remember make them more interesting by the simple case that you can't care about orcs if you can't distinguish individuals.
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Pylons on fire can stay, its awesome.

baldamundo

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Re: ☼Orcs☼ - Everything Orc Mode for Masterwork 2016 (New poll 6/30/16)
« Reply #164 on: January 07, 2017, 04:57:32 pm »

I would second that it'd be handy to have shorter names for orcs. Very difficult to remember who is who when they all have such long confusing names that barely fit on the screen.


I have a few questions also:
  • is there a list somewhere of which labours are used by the modded workshops? Particularly interested in the drydock, caravanserai, outpost warrior society kits, kobold headhunter, and the training workshops (bloodbowl pitch etc)
  • is there currently any use for souls?
  • has anyone worked out what the best livestock for a leather industry are? Cragtooth boars are currently looking promising, horned turtles you can't make lamellar out of (and for some reason mine aren't laying fertilised eggs...), I feel like aurochs and mumaks have a really slow growth/reproduction rate (although maybe the pay off is big enough to balance?) and need grass
  • how do you get your nobles promoted? In the legends viewer I see Orc thains, jarls and hersirs, and I'm sure I remember being promoted as an orc in previous playthroughs, but it doesn't seem to be happening this time. Pretty sure I meet the vanilla dwarf requirements for promotion
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