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Author Topic: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!  (Read 85516 times)

exdeath

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2016, 07:48:58 am »

Again, for anyone that cares, this is the parameters that you get when you average all world gen parameters of this version (only advanced gen ones), rounding to nearest and rounding up if .5

[WORLD_GEN]
   [TITLE:ALL MIX]
   [DIM:129:129]
   [EMBARK_POINTS:1504]
   [END_YEAR:1050]
   [BEAST_END_YEAR:136:80]
   [REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
   [CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:0]
   [ELEVATION:1:400:636:636]
   [RAINFALL:0:100:156:156]
   [TEMPERATURE:25:75:156:156]
   [DRAINAGE:0:100:156:156]
   [VOLCANISM:0:100:156:156]
   [SAVAGERY:0:100:156:156]
   [ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:2:1:1:1:1:1]
   [RAIN_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [POLE:NORTH_OR_SOUTH]
   [MINERAL_SCARCITY:2500]
   [MEGABEAST_CAP:20]
   [SEMIMEGABEAST_CAP:40]
   [TITAN_NUMBER:9]
   [TITAN_ATTACK_TRIGGER:80:0:100000]
   [DEMON_NUMBER:28]
   [NIGHT_TROLL_NUMBER:14]
   [BOGEYMAN_NUMBER:14]
   [VAMPIRE_NUMBER:14]
   [WEREBEAST_NUMBER:14]
   [SECRET_NUMBER:28]
   [REGIONAL_INTERACTION_NUMBER:28]
   [DISTURBANCE_INTERACTION_NUMBER:28]
   [EVIL_CLOUD_NUMBER:14]
   [EVIL_RAIN_NUMBER:18]
   [GENERATE_DIVINE_MATERIALS:1]
   [GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:17:165:263]
   [EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:17:165:263]
   [PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:9]
   [PARTIAL_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:1]
   [COMPLETE_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:2]
   [VOLCANO_MIN:3]
   [REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:168:1:1]
   [REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:168:1:1]
   [REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:670:2:2]
   [REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:1341:1:1]
   [REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:1341:1:1]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:8:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:16:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:1341:2:2]
   [REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:1341:2:2]
   [EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:226]
   [RIVER_MINS:66:66]
   [PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:1]
   [OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:1]
   [SUBREGION_MAX:2825]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:3]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:0]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:0]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:100]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MIN:0]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MAX:100]
   [HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_1:1]
   [HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_2:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_GROUND:15]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:5]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:2]
   [LEVELS_AT_BOTTOM:1]
   [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:5]
   [CAVE_MAX_SIZE:25]
   [MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:20]
   [NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:18]
   [ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:0]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
   [TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:21]
   [TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:15000]
   [SITE_CAP:578]
   [PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
   [ELEVATION_RANGES:5224:2758:1379]
   [RAIN_RANGES:1314:2629:1314]
   [DRAINAGE_RANGES:1314:2629:1314]
   [SAVAGERY_RANGES:1314:2629:1314]
   [VOLCANISM_RANGES:1314:2629:1314]
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Melting Sky

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2016, 09:54:56 am »

What settings control the incidence of Good/Evil and how to increase savagery?  I can't seem to get it to place savagery with minimum level set above 20...

I'm more than a little rusty since my days of playing with world generation for hours on end are long behind me, but my guess is you have probably increased the minimum savagery level for the entire world without changing the value for the minimum number of low savagery squares in the world. In other words you have told the game to build you a world with no low savagery areas but left in the the clause that tells it reject the world if it doesn't have enough low savagery areas in it. You can fix that by setting the minimum number of low savagery tiles it checks for to zero.

Just a word of caution, messing around with minimums and maxes is a good way to seriously fubar a world. You can easily end up doing things like creating a world that doesn't have any areas with low enough savagery for civilizations to develop. If you are just trying to increase the number of savage biomes this is best done by tweaking the weighted ranges for savagery frequency. For instance if you wanted to have a world with a lot more savage biomes than tame ones then you would want to increase the numbers next to the savagery weighted ranges that are at the higher end of the spectrum such as increasing the 60-80 and 80-100 savagery weighted ranges to 2 or 3 instead of 1. This ensures you still have some low savagery areas for civilizations to settle but that there is a lot of savage biomes populating the world as a whole. In this case you will have two or three times as many high savagery areas as you normally would have. Also you need to make sure the mesh size isn't set to ignore when you do this. The larger you set the mesh size number the more of the map that will be effected by the savagery frequency ratio you have set up.

If you want to tweak the amount of good and evil biomes you would do it with the desired evil or good square count parameters. Just keep in mind the more evil or good squares you ask for the less space there will be for the other alignments so don't go too crazy with these numbers. The best way to figure out how these values actually effect a world is simply to use the same seed for a world and then go in and screw around with whatever parameter you want to mess with and then observe the results during world generation.

Warning: If you start messing with the weighted ranges of a given biome frequency then be sure to tweak the corresponding minimums for those biome square counts or you are going to get mad rejections for your world. When I start messing around with things I just generally set all the minimums to zero for what ever biome it is I was tweaking. You won't get rejections that way and it's a lot easier than bothering to do all the math to tweak the minimum square counts more accurately. The minimum square counts are generally only worth setting up precisely if you are really picky about absolutely needing more than a certain number of squares of a certain type of biome for some reason. Increasing minimum square counts is a very good way to make the game start spitting out all sorts of rejected worlds at you and if you really mess it up you can actually ask the game to make an impossible world and it will reject 100% of the time. This would happen for extreme example if you asked the game to only accept worlds with a minimum number of high savagery tiles that exceeds the number of tiles in the world etc. If in doubt set the minimum square counts low or to zero.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 10:26:05 am by Melting Sky »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2016, 03:29:01 am »

I'm trying to create a PSV defined pocket world where humans and elves are separated from all other races, and dwarves and goblins share space, with a single tile in the center intended as the embark which should connect the fortress to all races (I haven't actually embarked, but pre embark claims the intended tile has all the races as neighbors).
I'm almost always successful in getting the humans where they're intended to be, and elves usually end up where they should (occasionally landing in human territory). The dwarves always end up where they should (not counting the very frequent world rejections). The goblins, however, are a problem. Most of the time they end up harassing the humans, occasionally the elves, and only rarely wipe out the dwaves (as intended).

I think I want the goblins to start on an evil plain, as I think that's how they'd get ogres to siege with. However, I don't know how to get them to spawn in the intended half of the world (at least not without the humans getting out of their place). Is there a way to get the goblins to start in the desired area (I think a desert with middling savagery will allow goblins but not the others, but I think I'll miss out on the ogres that way)?
Also, is there a way to define which areas should be good or evil? I don't think there is, unfortunately.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2016, 04:04:01 am »

Spoiler: We think alike (click to show/hide)

Though note the above is still flawed and 42.06 - I will be definitely making several tweaks. The 3-wide ocean is to guarantee no ocean beaches acting as bridges....*wishes Legends mode wasn't so confusing*

Though the lack of bridge over ocean is more driven by desire for all booze biomes.

Though on meeting, see also this convo with vjek.

Anyway, like this nobody goes to war with dwarves, however they still get visitors - in this worldgen, the dwarves are dead but the fortress has near 600 pop, including third of the elves of the world thanks to being the only library.

Elves: They, like the dwarves, cannot slowly expand without conquering.

Goblins: Can spawn pretty much anywhere with low savagery, I believe? Definitely the plains, at least.

Can convert untamed wilds to lower savagery and build dark pits there, though the process is slow (took centuries till they expanded past that large rectangle, the center of which used to be mostly untamed wilds separated volcano strip) and I believe will only happen if they run out of nice places to embark on.

Humans can also convert forests, but they became the main battlefield between all the races here, at other times they've stomped everyone.....

Thus, my current idea is to have stationary elves + humans and goblins inching closer, until they're all in range of each other for longer worldgen, where you wouldn't get human pits and goblin forest retreats in second century. Better toy with population restrictions.

Though, I may have lost the point somewhere (if just visitors is goal, see vjek's fourth post in first page), it is an interesting challenge.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 04:36:59 am by Fleeting Frames »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2016, 04:32:52 am »

I deal with Legends Mode by exporting the XML and image/info from the 64 bit experimental build and then importing it into Legends Viewer from the latest LNP I've downloaded. I haven't encountered any incompatibility yet (one crash on XML load, but that's happened with matching version as well, occasionally).

What I want to achieve is:
- Robust civs (i.e. a fair number of citizens) for all races, to allow for visitors in a pocket world (don't know if it works yet, though).
- Lots of goblins with ogres and beak dogs with their starting fortress their closest facility for a robust goblinite supply (and it was a very long time since I saw any ogres). My world is metal poor, so goblinite may be the only non trade supply of metal.
- Fully dead dwarven civ.
- As many animal people kinds as possible in other civs (primarily elves), for interesting visitors.
- Black towers are definitely a bonus.

Elves: Seem to want forest for their retreats. An initial explosion, and then they die off without reclaiming lost sites (reclamation of an elven site has been an indication of goblin activity in the past). They appear to have a high tolerance for savagery, so I give their area 80. I've tried to sprinkle their area with other biomes with maximum savagery in the hope of generating animal people that can migrate to the elves.
Humans: Want plains and low-mid savagery.
goblins: Any biome, I think, but have difficulty with high savagery, although their tolerance seems to be higher than that of humans.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2016, 05:09:12 am »

Tried to run legends viewer on linux myself, but failed to get it to run with wine or mono, so that's out unless I feel like restarting the computer (and Microsoft's yandere insistence on Win10 with data collection practices is a fairly creepy).

And yeah, I run elves on 100 savagery myself, they only go for connecting forest tiles, however they can conquer others - even expand human town "ranks" higher after becoming the new administrators, which can make them be in range as neighbours (untested if enough for visitors and war both) despite forest retreats being on other side of the world. 1-tile civs could act as time-delayed elven gateways, perhaps.

Goblins definitely spawn on evil tiles even if they're at peace with calm, but an issue is that evil is slightly random - so the size of those two biomes for beak dogs/ogres would be better if they were not used by humans or elves. On that note, all connected plains and all connected forests+taiga seem to be considered 1 region in legends mode, so elves and goblins pretty much have to have different expansion areas to guarantee evil areas for goblin-meant home in a single gen.

Still, that is a great idea! *notes*

Dead dwarven civ....if they have isolated mountain with no room to expand, it happens naturally as they dig deep and FB eats them in my experience, provided 8 caves from 8 surrounding mountains don't get them first. However, getting them killed by goblins for WAR might be preferable.

On humans: Unlike the avaricious goblins, I've had them not expand into wilderness (35 savagery resulting in a mix of calm and wild), myself. Ever since then, I use 30.

As for the animal people, can't think of anything better than what you're already doing.

Myself, I want all boozes, so tropical dry broadleaf/tropical grassland/tropical grassland/temperate grassland. Unfortunately, don't know how to create tropical dry broadleafs.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 05:12:30 am by Fleeting Frames »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2016, 05:44:25 am »

That's the reason I stay away from Linux: too many things that don't work and a fair bit of work to get those that do to do so. Plain too lazy.

Dwarves usually get offed by FBs, mega beasts, or goblins. However, if goblins are still at war with the dorfs at embark the civ isn't dead, just struggling...

I try to get all the kinds of booze I can get my hands on for my dorfs myself, but there's too much to juggle already, so I can't gear the embark towards that as well (especially since I want it perfectly flat (not counting water) and not prone to be overrun by trees; currently trying sand desert with just 1% rain). And with my connection strategy I'm confined to a single biome most of the time (not counting water, the shores of which don't support plants anyway).
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2016, 06:21:55 am »

Eh, there are fair bit of things that work on linux that don't work in windows; for instance the .gnumeric painter worksheet I use is built with dynamic ranges, which would be really, really, really tedious (separate function for each range) to set up in standard openoffice (I looked). It just happens so that legends viewer is one of those things that requires more precise virtualization / metaphorically in this discussion doesn't have a land bridge from one shore to another built yet by me, and I don't feel like looking at what text I want to keep and what not when closing down. (I think my favourites are more versatile hotkey customization (5-dimensional tabbing, for instance) and lower ram = more things to be left open, though, since I do most things in browsers or other multiplatform things.)

However, back to DF itself, have you looked with your setup to see that with the 1-wide gap the civs do not conquer each other skipping over it, no human pits or goblin retreats?

And yeah, without trees it's impossible to get all boozes. With just a desert, I think you're limited to planting just the ones that are not freezing, or perhaps any temperate|tropical as well?

PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2016, 08:05:25 am »

I don't disagree with Linux being better than Windows for a lot of things, but I just don't have a need for those. Game compatibility isn't Linux' main strength, even though it gets gradually better.

I have yet to see any sites belonging to the wrong civ on the wrong side of the water (not counting failed generation when they start on the wrong side, of course), and I've made quite a few generations, so I think it keeps them in place. I also do not get contact with all civs unless I depart on the connecting "water" tile, which requires at least some land to be generated on that tile (which doesn't always happen).

I don't understand how you'd ever be able to get all kinds of booze without trade (and very rarely with it), given that there are a lot of different biomes with different booze supporting plants, where all of the ones supported by a biome isn't necessarily present in the part you embark on. I guess a sufficiently large patchwork MIGHT achieve it, but even then you need a fair bit of luck to get sunshine and gutter cruor.
Desert tends to have a range of plants that can be grown, but a lot of tropical ones can not be grown, for instance. I generally trade for plants to get seeds for the stuff I CAN plant (and brew) when possible. I often try to make two biome embarks (not in this case), one being tree less and one embark tile with trees, and I try to build my courtyard to straddle the boundary to get plots supporting each biome's plants. I make a plot in each and then look at the list of stuff that can potentially be planted. It's not unusual to see one being a true subset of the other, though.
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vjek

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2016, 10:13:49 am »

... I think I want the goblins to start on an evil plain, as I think that's how they'd get ogres to siege with. However, I don't know how to get them to spawn in the intended half of the world (at least not without the humans getting out of their place). Is there a way to get the goblins to start in the desired area (I think a desert with middling savagery will allow goblins but not the others, but I think I'll miss out on the ogres that way)?
Also, is there a way to define which areas should be good or evil? I don't think there is, unfortunately.
If a tile is 100 savagery, and of no particular good or evil, no civ will start there, in my experience.
So, you can, if desired, restrict initial placement via savagery.
As far as making locations desirable or not, I use swamps, because dwarves, elves, and humans won't start there, but goblins will. (and it seems thematically appropriate)
Here's an example of a generic worldgen that has dwarves on mountains, humans on plains, elves in forests, and goblins in swamps.
As far as having everyone alive... don't go beyond year 100.  Otherwise, the goblins wipe everyone out, typically.
Spoiler: savage-fourcivs (click to show/hide)
To be clear, at embark, all races are present as neighbors, in this example world.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 10:21:45 am by vjek »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2016, 10:52:37 am »

I found humans hogged goblin plains starting locations with a savagery of 65, but 70 keeps them away. Elves seem to be fine with 80 (in forests, of course).

The problem with restricting starting positions is that goblins settle on the human (and dwarven) turf more often than not, and if the human area savagery is too high humans won't expand there. Elves similarly seem to have trouble expanding into 80+ savagery areas (which is a bit odd, given their "peace with nature" thing).

Since I'm using a physical barrier, I can usually keep them alive for the full 1050 year generation period if they start where I want them to.

As I said, I want goblins on evil plains for ogres if possible, and it seems to work when it happens, i.e. I've generated a number of worlds with goblins getting ogres when starting on an evil plain. As per the above, keeping others out of that plain is not the problem: it's keeping the goblins in out of the human turf. I can't increase the evil square count much, or I'll get excessive rejections, so actually getting that plain evil is another issue.

An odd observation is that increasing the non mountain caves from 20 to 40 in a pocket world (trying to get kobolds to survive more frequently) somehow usually led to the elves croaking and the humans to get a stunted growth.
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vjek

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2016, 11:04:24 am »

This is a modification of the previous four-civs world with a large evil center area of grassland.
Even if ogres don't show up in a particular embark (there are 1000+ ogres in the world after worldgen is done) , the concept should be reasonably easy to adapt to your needs.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It also has the most dense staring eyeballs I've seen in recent memory. :P

PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2016, 11:48:58 am »

Thanks vjek!

If I understand it correctly, you've ensured the big "cross" forest region becomes evil by using the large evil square count to match (exactly, I guess) the number of tiles of that region? That's a mighty handy trick. It won't keep the gobbos out of the human turf, but it does ensure they'll land on an evil plain when they do hit their target location.
Time to rework my world...

Edit:
OK. That didn't work, as my target area is too small for a large region, and when trying to define the medium one world gen usually messes up the elven patchwork instead. Time to increase the size of the area so it becomes big (and the only big one in the world...).
And I did check the description for the number. In my case 1 should actually work.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 12:20:54 pm by PatrikLundell »
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2016, 02:15:24 pm »

On booze: I compiled a list, you only need 4 biomes: Tropical Dry Broadleaf Forest, Tropical Savanna, Tropical Grassland and Temperate Grassland for it to be possible to spawn every boozeable plant. (Whether every plant spawns in their biome is another story indeed, though. At least can plant them, however.)

Sunshine and Silver Barb require just Not Freezing, Wet and Dry, Good and Evil. Give elves and humans medium sized areas while making every small region good or evil should provide the latter part, not freezing is pretty much everywhere, leaving just the Wet and Dry...Which I don't know how it works >_> At least the worlds I do are very wet so sunshine should be common.

I found humans hogged goblin plains starting locations with a savagery of 65, but 70 keeps them away. Elves seem to be fine with 80 (in forests, of course).

The problem with restricting starting positions is that goblins settle on the human (and dwarven) turf more often than not, and if the human area savagery is too high humans won't expand there. Elves similarly seem to have trouble expanding into 80+ savagery areas (which is a bit odd, given their "peace with nature" thing).
Not my experience with elves- then again, I don't go below 100 savagery if it is not necessary, and in case of forests I obviously never tried it.

I think that this means elves and goblins both will not expand into more savage areas unless it is the only remaining choice; That's quite useful to slightly delay elfsplosion from moving into range.

Interesting notes on humans, though. Running a world gen with isolated island with 10-100 savagery results in starting human town spawning on 30 every time, and expansion on 70 and 80 going slower (second and third century), 90 even slower (first in fourth century). First 100 savagery expansion occurred at the end of sixth century in the age of fairy tales.

Spoiler: After 1050 years.... (click to show/hide)


Well, they definitely converted almost the entire grassland area to calm (few spots of wilderness on the outer rim). Embark on one of the edges says the 100 became 23 or 26 (2 overlapping plains).

vjek:
And that's quite different from what I expected from a "plus". Like PatrickLundall, I like that cross of evil.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 02:17:40 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2016, 03:37:56 pm »

I'm trying out an evil plain (using vjek's large evil area method) with a savagery of 70 except for a single tile with a lower savagery. So far I've had a good success rate in getting the goblins to spawn in exactly that tile (selected to be the goblin settlement nearest to my intended embark, so sieges won't be sent from an outpost with 25 goblins, but rather the full size one).

I also stand corrected on elves and high savagery (I think). At least I've seen them make a settlement painted as a savagery of 100.

That booze source compilation is interesting. Sometime I think I'll try that. Have you checked fruit as well?
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