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Author Topic: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop  (Read 9043 times)

Toady One

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #195 on: September 13, 2017, 04:12:15 pm »

Yeah, hopefully this can be kept civil no matter where it lands.  The tone is getting out of hand.  If you can make the same point without slipping insults into the post, please try to do so!
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Retropunch

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #196 on: September 13, 2017, 05:21:24 pm »

I haven't read absolutely all of the lengthy debate/argument about fig - and the whole armchair economics stuff quickly degrades into a game of 'what ifs'. That being said, it's fair to say that Fig is pretty much universally seen as pretty shady funding mechanism - it tries to sell the 'investor' bit, and the returns are very doubtful. It was set up with a whole host of shell companies and get out of payment clauses which go way beyond just corporate arse covering.

I don't think anyone here is saying that it's going to be an incredible investment or anything, so I think we're all on the same page - dodgy, but not quite possible yet to say if it's really dodgy or not.






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Teneb

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #197 on: September 13, 2017, 05:23:56 pm »

Spoiler: Figpost (click to show/hide)

IronyOwl

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #198 on: September 13, 2017, 05:45:38 pm »

Getting back to despair and hatred about the game itself:
PPE: Looked at the actual 'detailed' post on the ballistics. It does not fill me with hope. This feels like the kind of thing that ends in screaming frustration when a soldier has the wrong pose behind cover.
Yeah this reminds me heavily of DF's "screw damage values, let's emulate physics" approach. Which... physically works, I guess, but has some wonky-ass and not necessarily desirable results, like armor of a material rendering you virtually immune to weapons of said material.

In a similar vein, when he talks about how awesome the combat is but then admits that it physically prevents him from conveying information to the player and that the exact pose of your soldier is going to super matter and that it still can't model this other complex thing he wants to do, I find it hard not to worry that he's got madness in his eyes and is going to make a Best Thing Ever that doesn't really make the game better.
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DAPARROT

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #199 on: September 13, 2017, 05:50:57 pm »

PTW
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Egan_BW

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #200 on: September 13, 2017, 05:54:29 pm »

Hmm. That's, like, pretty much the same system that the game Valkyria Chronicles uses. It doesn't seem particularly difficult to use in that game.
(On your turn, you get to move one of your soldiers at a time within their movement range. If you move in front of an enemy, they'll just overwatch shoot at you continually until you move out of the way. When you shoot, it goes over the shoulder and you get a little circle representing where your bullets might go, which you can move manually to aim for headshots and such.)
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #201 on: September 13, 2017, 06:24:32 pm »

Getting back to despair and hatred about the game itself:
PPE: Looked at the actual 'detailed' post on the ballistics. It does not fill me with hope. This feels like the kind of thing that ends in screaming frustration when a soldier has the wrong pose behind cover.
Yeah this reminds me heavily of DF's "screw damage values, let's emulate physics" approach. Which... physically works, I guess, but has some wonky-ass and not necessarily desirable results, like armor of a material rendering you virtually immune to weapons of said material.

In a similar vein, when he talks about how awesome the combat is but then admits that it physically prevents him from conveying information to the player and that the exact pose of your soldier is going to super matter and that it still can't model this other complex thing he wants to do, I find it hard not to worry that he's got madness in his eyes and is going to make a Best Thing Ever that doesn't really make the game better.

Personally the sense I got from it was that he was trying to return to original X-Com/TFTD/Apoc-style shooting where a bullet's trajectory checked if it hit something else, instead of just hitting or missing. The difference being that, as far as I recall from nuCom, you couldn't hit a friend/alien behind the target. You either hit or your missed, and you might damage cover but you'd never hit someone else.
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Draignean

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #202 on: September 13, 2017, 06:35:01 pm »

Personally the sense I got from it was that he was trying to return to original X-Com/TFTD/Apoc-style shooting where a bullet's trajectory checked if it hit something else, instead of just hitting or missing. The difference being that, as far as I recall from nuCom, you couldn't hit a friend/alien behind the target. You either hit or your missed, and you might damage cover but you'd never hit someone else.

Yeah, that does seem the most likely option. It does, however, seem silly that you can't derive a hit percentage. I just really, really, really dislike 'realistic ballistics' when what they mean is 'randomized raytrace'.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #203 on: September 14, 2017, 02:15:35 am »

Quote
Matthew 21:19
In the morning, as Jesus was returning to the city, He was hungry. Seeing a fig tree along the road, He went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. “May you never bear” fruit again! He said. And immediately the tree withered. 20When the disciples saw this, they marveled and asked, “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?


« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 12:16:41 pm by ChairmanPoo »
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #204 on: September 14, 2017, 02:37:54 am »

Personally the sense I got from it was that he was trying to return to original X-Com/TFTD/Apoc-style shooting where a bullet's trajectory checked if it hit something else, instead of just hitting or missing. The difference being that, as far as I recall from nuCom, you couldn't hit a friend/alien behind the target. You either hit or your missed, and you might damage cover but you'd never hit someone else.

Yeah, that does seem the most likely option. It does, however, seem silly that you can't derive a hit percentage. I just really, really, really dislike 'realistic ballistics' when what they mean is 'randomized raytrace'.

That's a good point, but "randomized raytrace" is still better than "50% chance to shoot through three allies and a concrete wall, 50% chance to hit something 10 meters away from the intended target.".
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Draignean

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #205 on: September 14, 2017, 10:04:25 am »

I'm not down on the mechanic, I'm just nervous about the way they're talking about it. It makes me skittish when people start throwing around 'realistic' like its a buzzword. I think, or at least I want to think, that this can be done really well- but I'm going to slap a caveat in there.

The part about snipers being able to grab headshots against enemies who think they're safe, that's again something that I could come down on either side of depending on how its implemented. If it lets the Sniper shoot through cover as a skill, I'm going to roll my eyes a bit. If it highlights an enemy's body so that cover offers no concealment and the high-powered sniper rifle is intrinsically able to shoot through cover, then I'm happy. If it means that snipers can call a shot every once in a while to fire on a point instead of the normal cone, I'm also fairly happy.

I want to be able to love this game, it's just the dev posts that activate all of my 'Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!' sensors.

On another note, I'm still ambivalent about the world map, but that's again largely due to the comparisons they make to other games, Stellaris being of note. However, if it's used more tonally- more in the 'It's dark, we've got a plane full of people, low supplies, half a tank of gas, no idea where Chicago is, and there aren't enough sunglasses to go around' vibe where the map is a threatening thing. In Stellaris, each individual point on the map usually feels me with pangs of regret and resignation, as I know I'm going to have marry, sleep with, or kill every one of those points in order to win the game. If I look at the 200 points on the geoscape and recoil with fear because I know 85% want to kill me personally, that's good. If I look at the 200 points on the geoscape and recoil because I know I'm going to have to tediously grind through these fucking pop-up events, that's bad.

We'll have to wait and see. In all honesty, I'd be happy if this game stayed pretty far away from the 'realistic' adjective.
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #206 on: September 14, 2017, 11:23:06 am »

iirc one of the dev logs mentioned that people would only end up visiting a fraction of all locations and would sometimes have to pick one/a few out of many available choices.
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #207 on: September 14, 2017, 03:06:43 pm »

iirc one of the dev logs mentioned that people would only end up visiting a fraction of all locations and would sometimes have to pick one/a few out of many available choices.

i like that idea. the stellaris comparison creates a huge pitfall: it's a slog to search every star, but you're obviously supposed to, but then the game falls off a cliff once you have.

better to make it highly impractical to do so relative to the length of the game/objectives, e.g., with some ramping threat that you have to deal with faster than you could possibly visit all the locations.
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Rince Wind

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #208 on: September 14, 2017, 05:56:26 pm »

Other options could be the other factions also visiting the locations and/or making at least some of them time sensitive.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #209 on: September 14, 2017, 07:42:46 pm »

In other words, XCOM 2's geoscape.
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