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Author Topic: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop  (Read 24195 times)

nenjin

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #315 on: March 14, 2019, 02:50:49 pm »

When enough isn't enough.
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Cruxador

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #316 on: March 14, 2019, 04:24:47 pm »

Then, try and tell me that Gollop's studio is in a better position that Telltale Games was, a studio with a number of bonafide hits under their belt.
Telltale had been circling the drain for a while though, I think mostly because they didn't have a solid enough core audience. I agree with your general point, but I'd have used THQ as the example. They invested heavily into something that flopped (although it was a peripheral) and the next game they made was just kinda okay, when they needed a hit (and to make matters worse, launched the same day as a game that was a hit). Gollop isn't overinvesting in peripherals, but since this is the first game from Snapshot on anywhere near this scale, it's still very much an "all eggs in one basket" situation.
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IronyOwl

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #317 on: March 14, 2019, 09:37:17 pm »

No option is going to make the uber-entitled modern consumer happy.
I'll echo that "uber-entitled" is an interesting charge to levy.

In Gollop's AMA they confirmed they didn't need the money from Epic to release the game. So it's not entirely a matter of survival.
Not immediately, no. But from here he has to immediately invest the profits from the game into additional support and expansions or an entirely different project, start another crowdfunding campaign, or give up on making games. If the first option doesn't pan out, he'll be stuck with the third option and also wishing he'd kept the money. If the second doesn't pan out, he'll be back to the third and- depending on where it failed- will also face a great deal of backlash and accusations of fraud, incompetence, and/or greed.

His position wasn't ruinous from what we know, but it's hard to call it secure.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #318 on: March 15, 2019, 01:15:36 am »

anyway, if you intend to register to epic make sure you don't register with oauth (Gmail or Facebook logins)

apparently lot of emails from the various lists got registered preemptively https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19394880
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Mephansteras

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #319 on: March 15, 2019, 09:26:36 am »

Sheesh.
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Glloyd

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #320 on: March 15, 2019, 02:17:40 pm »

Yeah, my buddy tried to make an account to get Subnautica back when it was free and someone had already signed up with his email, and as far as I know he still hasn't heard back from Epic support. Their customer service and UX is so bad, I've had other friends have issues with them before. For the longest time you couldn't even change your account's associated email without getting in touch with customer support, who take months or longer to respond to any request. That might still be the case, but I don't use Epic, so I don't know.

Sirus

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #321 on: March 15, 2019, 03:15:54 pm »

but its just another storefront you guys
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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #322 on: March 15, 2019, 05:12:18 pm »

(it has been suggested this thread may become a bit heated as it goes - so yeah, please just make sure you are being calm with each other and so forth)
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Reelya

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #323 on: March 15, 2019, 06:19:09 pm »

No option is going to make the uber-entitled modern consumer happy.
I'll echo that "uber-entitled" is an interesting charge to levy.

Maybe it seems hyperbolic when attached to a particular game-development effort, but I was speaking generally. People are generally acting that way in relation to basically every in-development title, to some degree.

People also bring up breach-of-contract as the main point. However, game development isn't like delivering a load of a specific number of widgets, by a certain date, to a certain place. People and companies who have been running large game development projects for over 3 decades still can't assure any of those things, for basically any game project, except the most mundane.

Game projects are not a commodity that can be specified exactly by contract, every game development project (except for by-the-numbers sequels) is solving a list of unknown-unknown type problems. If games are made up of widgets that can be expected to have a "contract" to deliver, then the widgets are made of an unknown material, of a yet-to-be-decided shape and purpose, with an unknown number of widget types and widget amounts per type, to be delivered at an unknown date to an unknown place, but with a vague understanding of the overall shape the pile of widgets must resemble.

The alternative is just not how game development even works. That's not how games are pitched to big name investors. Big name investors are extremely used to schedule slippages, budget overflows, requests for more money, and the game being redesigned midstream, because those are just the basic realities of what it's like to create video games.

it's the norm, not the exception, for just about every detail except for the broad game concept to be different by the end compared to the start. Except big name investors don't freak out because the details changed, including platform of delivery, final date, pricing etc. All of those are expected to be different by the end compared to when the investors put the money in. This level of specificity is in fact the industry norm, not some exceptional breach of "contract".

If any one thing is going to kill crowd-funding of game projects, it's the way the crowd responds to the changes that occur during a game development effort. That's where the sense-of-entitlement comes in and is much different to how a regular investor would react.

Sure, maybe game developers shouldn't promise these things if they "can't deliver" but that's basically like saying game developers shouldn't make any new games at all. If devs only made what they knew they could deliver, only the shittiest clone games would ever get made.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 06:29:02 pm by Reelya »
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Teneb

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #324 on: March 15, 2019, 06:27:40 pm »

I think the main problem with Epic is that they are trying to compete with Steam not by being better, but by just gating games behind their service. And that sucks for anyone not in North America or Western Europe, since there is no regional pricing, meaning the rest of the world pays MORE than they would in Steam or GOG or even Origin and Uplay.
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Reelya

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #325 on: March 15, 2019, 06:40:53 pm »

However, for the breach of contract idea, was there ever a contractual date locked into this thing?

If there was no promise date then as long as it gets on Steam / GoG eventually, that's in line with the original promise.

The fact that it was playable on another platform first wasn't ever promised not to happen, unless there was a specific contractual promise that nobody else could play it before the Steam users got at it.

If we incite the "breach of contract" argument then we need to actually take contract law into account here. Anything not specifically excluded from a contact is in fact legitimate behavior.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 06:44:38 pm by Reelya »
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nenjin

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #326 on: March 15, 2019, 06:55:40 pm »

I feel like the sketichness of an endeavor is directly proportional to how many hairs you end up splitting over it. But this the internet, 2019.
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Cruxador

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #327 on: March 15, 2019, 08:44:13 pm »

Regarding the question of the Steam date, releasing on Steam later doesn't actually fulfill the agreement, since it wasn't just about releasing. They need to actually give backers the steam key. If they'll still do that, then fine. It's no different than a delay, really. But I doubt the folks at Epic will be happy to have the people that they wanted to be a captive audience being given an easy transfer incentive like that, so it's questionable whether they're going to prohibit that in some way, even beyond the year of exclusivity.
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IronyOwl

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #328 on: March 15, 2019, 09:03:06 pm »

it's the norm, not the exception, for just about every detail except for the broad game concept to be different by the end compared to the start. Except big name investors don't freak out because the details changed, including platform of delivery, final date, pricing etc. All of those are expected to be different by the end compared to when the investors put the money in. This level of specificity is in fact the industry norm, not some exceptional breach of "contract".

If any one thing is going to kill crowd-funding of game projects, it's the way the crowd responds to the changes that occur during a game development effort. That's where the sense-of-entitlement comes in and is much different to how a regular investor would react.

Sure, maybe game developers shouldn't promise these things if they "can't deliver" but that's basically like saying game developers shouldn't make any new games at all. If devs only made what they knew they could deliver, only the shittiest clone games would ever get made.
Crowdfunders are not big name investors with no interest in a game beyond its investment returns, and they're not being sold "a financially successful product" with no other details. They're consumers purchasing a product for personal use, having been assured of specific features and qualities.

If making games that way is literally impossible, then it's fraud by virtue of promising something that's impossible. At best this means game developers have to deceive people into spending money on products they don't want to run their business, which is incredibly shady.

I would instead posit that game developers have the option to be honest, but a lot choose not to and hope the backlash isn't too damaging and they get lucky and everything works out; which, perhaps not surprisingly, is how a lot of businesses end up operating in general. If so, the takeaway would seem to be that backers aren't entitled so much as gullible- a common criticism of crowdfunding- or even not entitled enough- letting shady things fly so long as it mostly sort of looks like things will work out at some point in the future.
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Persus13

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Re: Phoenix Point : In the works X-COMlike from Gollop
« Reply #329 on: March 15, 2019, 09:10:30 pm »

I think the main problem with Epic is that they are trying to compete with Steam not by being better, but by just gating games behind their service. And that sucks for anyone not in North America or Western Europe, since there is no regional pricing, meaning the rest of the world pays MORE than they would in Steam or GOG or even Origin and Uplay.
This summarizes my problem with Epic pulling stunts like this. I don't have a problem with Gollop trying to get more secure funding for his game. I do have a problem with Epic throwing enough money at Gollop to buy out all the backers to get exclusivity instead of spending it to have a better store than Steam's.

However, for the breach of contract idea, was there ever a contractual date locked into this thing?
They actually delayed the release date of Phoenix Point a month or two ago, and most people were fine with it.

Regarding the question of the Steam date, releasing on Steam later doesn't actually fulfill the agreement, since it wasn't just about releasing. They need to actually give backers the steam key.
My understanding from my look at the announcement and Reddit was that they're still going to give backers a Steam key if they so desire, just a year later.
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