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Author Topic: Sex  (Read 32283 times)

Putnam

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Re: Sex
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2016, 05:34:45 am »

But that's not the argument, you took a part of a post out of context and then acted as if that's the entire point, which adds absolutely nothing to the conversation and leads to annoying arguments.

EDIT: what the fuck i'm actually angry right now, that never happens

Orange Wizard

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Re: Sex
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2016, 05:39:41 am »

It certainly sounds like that's the argument, but who am I to know
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Putnam

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Re: Sex
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2016, 05:44:38 am »

well, to elaborate on my last post, since I usually try to avoid the topic:

this fanbase is almost entirely made up of complete edgelords who consider dwarves to be some sort of hedonistic violence-loving sociopathic sentient beard and the possibility of rape being added immediately adds such revulsion to me due to the awful state of the community in matters of general morality that the mere suggestion makes me curl up in fear and shame at the possibility of being associated with the kind of vile deeds that would immediately be perpetrated therein

i mean, it's not like it hasn't already happened

there's also the way that, like, violence is something people have PTSD over but violence is something that happens for legitimate political and material acquisition purposes, a means to an end, while rape... like, isn't, i literally cannot think of anything rape can be "used" for that isn't some sort of awful end unto itself, so in the context of DF there's no real benefit to it

FantasticDorf

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Re: Sex
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2016, 06:35:16 am »

its a issue that people can't understand that some mature themes resolutions are explicitly linked to a need for real world help & counseling. Desensitizing to those themes (such as desensitizing to themes in pornography to draw up a comparison) by inserting it into pop culture won't help anybody.
IT MAKES ME UNCOMFORTABLE THEREFORE IT SHOULD BE REMOVED

Obviously you haven't read the arguement in both pieces. The part you quoted was in relation to a arguement over it being 'PC gone mad' for a basis of not putting it in. Its a serious real world issue of a abuser pushing themselves onto someone else usually of a vulnerable disposition that requires very much real world responses instead of trivialisation by the fact that one person may not like it therefore feels that it should be censored just because its a 'game mechanic' (urgh, how horrid).

May i ask a question? Do you read a lot of manga magazines that they 'store upstairs' because that kind of content is the stuff that im talking about when we're discussing mature themes in popular culture and desensitizing. Quite graphic material just becomes the norm of people who pick up on it (probably being weirded out on their first few magazines or easing into lighter material), in the comparison to showing such a inherently violent and abusive action towards another being, as to say its ok because their minds are normalised to it doesn't make it ok both legally and morally.

This arguement gets thrown up a lot about videogames promoting violent acts, its true that videogames do desensitize but most people have the intelligence and will to identify it as a game. Especially when low levels of maturity is thrown into the mix and ongoing mental issues that may be in place already or caused by the violent actions of rape (such as the PTSD example putnam picks out) the risk rises.

Acknowledging it exists but taking not very much to practically no emphasis on it is really the only way to be mature and moderate about it besides cutting the unnessecary feature out entirely.

well, to elaborate on my last post, since I usually try to avoid the topic:

this fanbase is almost entirely made up of complete edgelords who consider dwarves to be some sort of hedonistic violence-loving sociopathic sentient beard and the possibility of rape being added immediately adds such revulsion to me due to the awful state of the community in matters of general morality that the mere suggestion makes me curl up in fear and shame at the possibility of being associated with the kind of vile deeds that would immediately be perpetrated therein

i mean, it's not like it hasn't already happened

there's also the way that, like, violence is something people have PTSD over but violence is something that happens for legitimate political and material acquisition purposes, a means to an end, while rape... like, isn't, i literally cannot think of anything rape can be "used" for that isn't some sort of awful end unto itself, so in the context of DF there's no real benefit to it

Well said. I too would feel ashamed and jump ship from the forum. This conversation WAS needed at some point, but its really shown up the community in a bad light.

I feel like we can comfortably retire this thread within a few more posts and have it over and done with
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Sex
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2016, 06:53:43 am »

Obviously you haven't read the arguement in both pieces. The part you quoted was in relation to a arguement over it being 'PC gone mad' for a basis of not putting it in.
I read both your posts, I'm just having trouble understanding your point.
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Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
Hard science is like a sword, and soft science is like fear. You can use both to equally powerful results, but even if your opponent disbelieve your stabs, they will still die.

Ekaton

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Re: Sex
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2016, 06:55:13 am »

Rape in games is different from its depiction in films because you are part of the world - you can choose not to help a raped person or worse - commit it yourself. It is not just watching it - it is initiating and doing it. That is why such things get a very bad press and could potentially impact DF's reputation greatly.

On the other hand - in a brutal fantasy world rape must exist in it - if it is to be depicted, then perhaps without player's ability to do so. Although, frankly, this distinction with rape - bad, and torture, mutilation, brutal murder - ok, seems very odd.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 06:58:05 am by Ekaton »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Sex
« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2016, 07:18:55 am »

On the other hand - in a brutal fantasy world rape must exist in it - if it is to be depicted, then perhaps without player's ability to do so. Although, frankly, this distinction with rape - bad, and torture, mutilation, brutal murder - ok, seems very odd.

Must it really though? Id rather just boycott the extreme brutality theme all-together then since the community can't handle or narrow down the definition beyond 'violent free-for-all' (from both viewpoints)

Since when did thinking instantly jump from mediocre violence (df standard) to EXTREME VIOLENCE (the worst crimes commited as the real world human race suddenly being acceptable inside a videogame or just acceptable in general) rather than just a upgrade to the amount of mediocre violence happening all the while? It really shows where the community moral compass is on these issues.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 07:27:32 am by FantasticDorf »
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Ekaton

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Re: Sex
« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2016, 07:39:22 am »

On the other hand - in a brutal fantasy world rape must exist in it - if it is to be depicted, then perhaps without player's ability to do so. Although, frankly, this distinction with rape - bad, and torture, mutilation, brutal murder - ok, seems very odd.

Must it really though? Id rather just boycott the extreme brutality theme all-together then since the community can't handle or narrow down the definition beyond 'violent free-for-all' (from both viewpoints)

Since when did thinking instantly jump from mediocre violence (df standard) to EXTREME VIOLENCE (the worst crimes commited as the real world human race suddenly being acceptable inside a videogame or just acceptable in general) rather than just a upgrade to the amount of mediocre violence happening all the while? It really shows where the community moral compass is on these issues.

It existed in nearly every war humanity has ever fought - unless brutal fantasy world is to be a lot different, it must have that part too for it to be realistic. With creatures like goblins for example I can easily imagine that they'd be quite keen on it.

And don't we already have kidnapping other creatures to mate with them or was it just an idea posted here? I remember reading about it - then this is just rape, unless we assume that all kidnapped creatures consented.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Sex
« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2016, 07:46:50 am »

On the other hand - in a brutal fantasy world rape must exist in it - if it is to be depicted, then perhaps without player's ability to do so. Although, frankly, this distinction with rape - bad, and torture, mutilation, brutal murder - ok, seems very odd.

Must it really though? Id rather just boycott the extreme brutality theme all-together then since the community can't handle or narrow down the definition beyond 'violent free-for-all' (from both viewpoints)

Since when did thinking instantly jump from mediocre violence (df standard) to EXTREME VIOLENCE (the worst crimes commited as the real world human race suddenly being acceptable inside a videogame or just acceptable in general) rather than just a upgrade to the amount of mediocre violence happening all the while? It really shows where the community moral compass is on these issues.

It existed in nearly every war humanity has ever fought - unless brutal fantasy world is to be a lot different, it must have that part too for it to be realistic. With creatures like goblins for example I can easily imagine that they'd be quite keen on it.

And don't we already have kidnapping other creatures to mate with them or was it just an idea posted here? I remember reading about it - then this is just rape, unless we assume that all kidnapped creatures consented.

I can't deny that truth but there is a clear distinction that DF is not our reality nor does any bearing of reality have to exist on DF and vice versa.

You are right on the kidnapping but that's treated as transforming them into 'spouses', and handles it within a professional capacity to keeping the details vague.
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Ekaton

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Re: Sex
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2016, 08:11:42 am »

I am not saying that I am for including that in the game explicitly - transferring them into spouses leaves gruesome details behind the curtain, and it is fine by me to depict it this way. All I'm saying - we already have something similar then, just without the details.

And about the world - it is hard for me to imagine that if there are sexual urges, brutality, and lack of morals in the world, there would be no rape. It is a natural consequence of those combined.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Sex
« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2016, 08:13:14 am »

Rape - and sex more generally - is pretty taboo compared to torture, etc. Seems reasonable to leave it out.
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Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
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Starver

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Re: Sex
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2016, 08:49:44 am »

"What does it add?" is my big question.

Gruesome detail of (non-sexual) violence can provide for quite specific injurious actions that affect a survivor in various ways (loss of body part, impairment, need for specific medical treatments) and give the player more to do in Adventure Mode than just choose between "lethal move", "disabling move", "stunning move", "tap" or "ease off" (already that being a more complex system than the punch/kick/powered-up-special-move usually available) according to which are allowed by the current status of the fight.

Gruesome detail of copulatory 'combat' doesn't really add more to the combat (if that's not your aim, and then there's otjer games that give you that without all the other 'cruft' that is DF), and doesn't tend to add more to the relationship between the participants.

Similarly, we don't get detailed 'blow-for-blow' (NPI) descriptions of consensual sex.  There are other games that give that, as well, but it doesn't really do much for this Armokian saga.  IMO.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Sex
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2016, 12:49:03 pm »

All this salt and bitching ALSO pleases Obok Meatgod.
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On DF Wiki · On DFFD

"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.

Putnam

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Re: Sex
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2016, 05:37:45 pm »

Isn't mention of that, like, completely verboten?

Random_Dragon

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Re: Sex
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2016, 05:53:29 pm »

I prefer referring to him as Orkbork Somethingorother anyway. But, it seems hilariously effective at derailing this argument.
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On DF Wiki · On DFFD

"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.
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