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[MetalSlimeHunt]

Man, I worked hard on that post...

[hector13]

Man, I worked hard on that post...

If it makes you feel any better, providing people with knowledge and information that challenges their belief just makes them more likely to believe what you're arguing against. Lagslayer seems to think that an eye for an eye is the way forward, regardless of who or how many are made blind.

[Starver]

(edited my messed up tagging)

You say this, and yet, countless wars have come to an end from exactly such a thing.

Based upon such an asymmetric conflict? Without a third party/outside power capable of knocking everyone's heads together, but themselves staying self-restrained?

Maybe you're thinking of how something like the government/FARC(/right-wing paramilitaries) conflict has been recently dialled back, but that's really far from comparable a solution.

Also, DF is a work of fiction. Makes you wonder why some people can't think outside their fantasy land.

My fantasy-land example is there to hold a mirror up to your fantasy-land 'solution'. Get over it.


@MSH: I liked your post. Though maybe we share the same Kool-Aid, who knows.

[Lagslayer]

Man, I worked hard on that post...

It's not that it isn't a well-written post, it's just that your point had already been thoroughly worked through several pages ago.

The discussion moved past both of our points, unfortunately.

Your point was quickly addressed, but misconstrued as an attack, by someone who you otherwise supported. This was corrected, and we all moved on.

Man, I worked hard on that post...

If it makes you feel any better, providing people with knowledge and information that challenges their belief just makes them more likely to believe what you're arguing against. Lagslayer seems to think that an eye for an eye is the way forward, regardless of who or how many are made blind.

Everything else has been tried, to disasterous effect. Doing the same shit over and over and expecting a different result is foolish.

Eye-for-an-eye is guaranteed to end eventually, when someone runs out of eyes, or gets tired enough of losing them.

Mostly because arguing by use of facts and information makes for poor rhetoric against a good emotional argument.

Sad but true. The real debate here is who is on the side of facts, and the other of emotion.

Also, DF is a work of fiction. Makes you wonder why some people can't think outside their fantasy land.

My fantasy-land example is there to hold a mirror up to your fantasy-land 'solution'. Get over it.

Are you going to start quoting Harry Potter now?

[Starver]

Are you going to start quoting Harry Potter now?

I don't recall anything useful in such a derivative work.  Wouldn't you like some Pratchett, instead?

[Lagslayer]

Are you going to start quoting Harry Potter now?

I don't recall anything useful in such a derivative work.  Wouldn't you like some Pratchett, instead?

I'd love to if only I had the time. barely enough hours in a day to work, sleep, eat, keep up with current events, and browse dank memes.

No, no, that was me clarifying your point. I'm talking about the post where I made my own, which was right before that.

As for "who is on the side of facts and who of emotion", it doesn't matter, because rhetoric isn't one side versus another. The strongest argument will fall if it stands on but a single rhetorical leg, when put up against a balanced argument. Problem is that we don't actually teach rhetoric anymore, so no one knows how to construct a proper one.

I believe I did respond to that post. Perhaps it was overlooked? Or do you feel it didn't address your point?

As for the rhetorical leg thing, that's what I was talking about when I mentioned illegal opinions, earlier.

[hector13]

Man, I worked hard on that post...

If it makes you feel any better, providing people with knowledge and information that challenges their belief just makes them more likely to believe what you're arguing against. Lagslayer seems to think that an eye for an eye is the way forward, regardless of who or how many are made blind.

Everything else has been tried, to disasterous effect. Doing the same shit over and over and expecting a different result is foolish.

Perhaps you can come up with some examples? Everything encompasses a lot of things, after all.

Eye-for-an-eye is guaranteed to end eventually, when someone runs out of eyes, or gets tired enough of losing them.

I (eye) imagine it'll be when the world turns it's eyes upon they that is doing all this eye-gouging and puts a stop to it.

To end my metaphor, I don't think wholesale murder is something that everyone finds tenable. The phrase "who'll be next" will come up a lot.

[Lagslayer]

Perhaps you can come up with some examples? Everything encompasses a lot of things, after all.

Throwing money at the problem doesn't work. It just gets squandered on something stupid, or whatever it's used for is torn down or neglected because they don't care about it.
Peace and love "Just stop the fighting, maaaaaan! *blunt*" never, EVER worked, because you can't stay hopped up on narcotics 24/7.


These people believe they get into heaven by forcing you to submit to sharia law, killing you, or otherwise wiping you and everything you stand for from history. They only care about your rules to the extent of how they can be turned against you. Where diplomacy and resources do not matter, all that is left is violence or surrender.

[Lagslayer]

Can't find your response, unfortunately.

Was it this one?

You're not killing 9 innocents and a murderer, though. You're killing 10 individuals in the fear that one may turn into a murderer.

Additionally, they are your own people. Unless you're going to tell me that they're all foreigners, and you know that's a lie.

Define "foreigner". If someone is technically, legally classified a citizen, but doesn't share any of the culture, history, or even the same language as you, can they really be considered kin? They would be foreigners in everything but name only.

[smjjames]

Going all out violence against them a la annhilation Crusade doesn't work either. Did all out violence against the IRA EVER work for Britan?

Besides, that's only ever a short term solution, unless you want to be fighting against them for decades. As has been said here and elsewhere, the only tenable long-term solution is to fix the problems which foster the terrorism in the first place.

[Starver]

and browse dank memes.

Or dark minesigns.

[Lagslayer]

Here we actually get to the root of the problem- people who feel out of place in a country they call home, being told a siren's song from the lands of their parents of a heritage they might actually recognize. Sure, we could kill the sirens, but these days such songstresses exist across the internet, so we could never get to them all. We could eradicate those who feel disenfranchised, and use it as an example to others who might follow a similar path, but wouldn't that make them feel more like outsiders than before? If they are foreigners due to a lack of shared culture, history, and language, have you considered challenging them on a cultural front? Maybe this whole crisis speaks to a lack of cultural pride and patriotism across your entire nation, which is starting to show in second and third generation immigrants who still feel like foreigners?

Maybe this whole crisis is nothing but a symptom of an even larger one, not fought in the minds of foreigners but all of your countrymen?

How did I miss that?

I agree with what I think you're implying. Different cultures shouldn't just be mashed together, because it just creates friction. And should a small culture find itself isolated within a large culture, this gets even worse. Sometimes, different groups of people are better of being separate from others. This is why nationalism is important. This is why the typical liberal version of "multiculturalism" does not work.

[hector13]

So... everything is money/capital and hippy culture from the 60s?

Is it merely the timeline you object to, that the things that are tried don't stop the extremists in their tracks immediately, right now, not a second longer?

'Cause, I mean, you just seem to think that genocide will stop things. You mentioned this earlier:

You can't kill an idea with bullets, but you can certainly stop the people who spout it.

You can kill some of the people that spout the message at any one time. We live in a media world, though. Those killings will be reported.

"Why were these people killed?" you might hear.

"They believed the West hates them." will be the retort.

"Perhaps they have a point. What else did they say?"

You can't kill an idea, man.

[Lagslayer]

You borked your quote attribution.

i know, I know. Already spotted it.

I forgot how cumbersome it is to post on this site.

[Lagslayer]

So... everything is money/capital and hippy culture from the 60s?

Is it merely the timeline you object to, that the things that are tried don't stop the extremists in their tracks immediately, right now, not a second longer?

'Cause, I mean, you just seem to think that genocide will stop things. You mentioned this earlier:

You can't kill an idea with bullets, but you can certainly stop the people who spout it.

You can kill some of the people that spout the message at any one time. We live in a media world, though. Those killings will be reported.

"Why were these people killed?" you might hear.

"They believed the West hates them." will be the retort.

"Perhaps they have a point. What else did they say?"

You can't kill an idea, man.

In my attempt at breivity, I neglected the "send them back where they came, and actually enforcing national sovereignty" option.

see

Here we actually get to the root of the problem- people who feel out of place in a country they call home, being told a siren's song from the lands of their parents of a heritage they might actually recognize. Sure, we could kill the sirens, but these days such songstresses exist across the internet, so we could never get to them all. We could eradicate those who feel disenfranchised, and use it as an example to others who might follow a similar path, but wouldn't that make them feel more like outsiders than before? If they are foreigners due to a lack of shared culture, history, and language, have you considered challenging them on a cultural front? Maybe this whole crisis speaks to a lack of cultural pride and patriotism across your entire nation, which is starting to show in second and third generation immigrants who still feel like foreigners?

Maybe this whole crisis is nothing but a symptom of an even larger one, not fought in the minds of foreigners but all of your countrymen?

How did I miss that?

I agree with what I think you're implying. Different cultures shouldn't just be mashed together, because it just creates friction. And should a small culture find itself isolated within a large culture, this gets even worse. Sometimes, different groups of people are better of being separate from others. This is why nationalism is important. This is why the typical liberal version of "multiculturalism" does not work.