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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 177745 times)

Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #255 on: July 03, 2016, 11:04:15 pm »

Not a lot (except for perspective) to argue with your mammoth post,  LW.

At the risk of falling into a Godwination trap, I'll address this bit, though...

Ken Livingstone saying Hitler rose to power on a Zionist platform,
The problem with that is that Zionism is the 'Jewish people' saying "we will make our home here" (in, as it turns out, what at that time had now become Palestine) whilst old 'one ball and toothbrush moustache' was saying "your home is not here, you should all go elsewhere".. Even if Alois Schicklgruber's son had directed them towards the (re)foundation of Israel (and indisputible evidence for that specific desire, as opposed to "anywhere but here", is scarce) his act was still anti-semitic, however pro-semitic you consider the actually zionist movers and shakers.  But, by this assumed metric, the Bohemian Corporal and his regime did support zionism (moreso than the British!), but zionists can't themselves be considered tarred with the same historical brush.

But its a whole lot of trouble to get into, over an ill-judged comment, and people do get upset by certain comparisons before even hearing the context (especially if primed by people who want to stir things up; see also the fuss about Salman Rushdie and John "We're more popular than Jesus" Lennon, for starters).  I'm now waiting with trepidation to see whether I've triggered people into thinking I support someone I don't, and never even intended to suggest I did.
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #256 on: July 03, 2016, 11:28:27 pm »

With Thatcherism and Blarism, the PLP gained power and is an almost self-contained unit, not answerable to the GA nor NEC, and even CLPs are largely advisory. Corbyn and Momentum wanted to return Labour back on the days of the GA and NEC controls party policy and whips the PLP under their will.
Blair was the answer to Labour's (perceived?) unelectability. And he seems to have worked.

Cameron was the Tory response, a 'Blue Blair' to counter the (perceived) Tory unelectability, but just as Labour lost its Blair attraction, arguably. Either way, it seemed to work.

The cycle isn't over, but it seems obvious to me that (outside of the PLP, probably many of whom were 'inspired' to their position/repositioning by Blair, except for the few surviving figures of the pre-New Labour era, if not even older Old Guard) the labourite populous in general has a significant amount of Anti-Blairite Bounce to their opinions, and not a little hint that the same (in reflection) is in progress vs. the Cameronian position. Not helped by the depopulation, in parliament and visiblle electoral support, of the middle-ground LibDems.

Messy. But I wonder, as with a slo-mo closeup of waterdrop upon a pond, the ripples might spike the centre up again, unexpectedly, drawing from the liquid surplus to the minima circle immediately surrounding the centre of the splash.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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evilcherry

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #257 on: July 04, 2016, 12:42:04 am »

With Thatcherism and Blarism, the PLP gained power and is an almost self-contained unit, not answerable to the GA nor NEC, and even CLPs are largely advisory. Corbyn and Momentum wanted to return Labour back on the days of the GA and NEC controls party policy and whips the PLP under their will.
Blair was the answer to Labour's (perceived?) unelectability. And he seems to have worked.

Cameron was the Tory response, a 'Blue Blair' to counter the (perceived) Tory unelectability, but just as Labour lost its Blair attraction, arguably. Either way, it seemed to work.

The cycle isn't over, but it seems obvious to me that (outside of the PLP, probably many of whom were 'inspired' to their position/repositioning by Blair, except for the few surviving figures of the pre-New Labour era, if not even older Old Guard) the labourite populous in general has a significant amount of Anti-Blairite Bounce to their opinions, and not a little hint that the same (in reflection) is in progress vs. the Cameronian position. Not helped by the depopulation, in parliament and visiblle electoral support, of the middle-ground LibDems.

Messy. But I wonder, as with a slo-mo closeup of waterdrop upon a pond, the ripples might spike the centre up again, unexpectedly, drawing from the liquid surplus to the minima circle immediately surrounding the centre of the splash.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
But so? Its a problem of principles. Momentum is a two-finger salute against the tribal politics of Blair-Cameron era, when party/personal loyalties and winning seats is all that counts and principles can be brushed aside.

Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #258 on: July 04, 2016, 03:47:52 am »

Feminists don't like May, at all

Feminists don't like anyone (mostly a result of complainers being louder then supporters and other factors). Feminism doesn't lie on party lines so generally speaking feminists will judge candidates along their own personal party lines.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/05/why-millennial-feminists-don-t-like-hillary.html
http://judgybitch.com/2013/12/04/michelle-obama-is-a-feminist-nightmare-youre-goddamn-right-she-is/
http://queernotes.blogspot.ca/2008/03/why-do-some-feminists-hate-barack-obama.html

Oddly enough if they are a woman... then there are a LOT of feminist articles about how terrible they are. (it is odd to me)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 04:03:35 am by Neonivek »
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Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #259 on: July 04, 2016, 04:23:49 am »

Yay, great post LW. I'm going to try to make a semi-substantial answer rather than a snarky one liner. :)

Regarding Labour: I'm quite amazed at the size of the mess, probably because I had not been paying enough attention to internal Labour politics. I simply don't get what the PLP is hoping to accomplish. Sure Corbyn might cost them the next general election, but this bickering will hardly make things better, and Corbyn did bring a ton of members to the party. With all the prominent Conservative trying very hard not to become Prime Ministers, there was an opportunity for Labour to sounds statesman-like. Instead, we got a bunch of bickering. Is there even someone to take over the party if Corbyn quits?

I find it particularily annoying because whoever is the next Prime Minister will have a huge influence on Britain by renegotating its influence with its entire neighbourhood. You rightly point out that the public won't have the stamina to be still interested in the minutiae of negotiation after a couple years. That's what ane le opposition is important, to keep the government in check. There was a lot of commentary from the left saying in effect "We don't like the EU because it's a neo-liberal nightmare, but exiting now means exiting on the Torie's terms, which is not going to improve". Without Labour to keep the Government in check, the Eurosceptic Left's worst nightmare might come to pass, as they end up in a deal that just keep all the parts of EU membership they don't like.

Thanks god, no one seems to be in a hurry to do anything about leaving, so Labour should have the time to sort itself out at some point. I wonder if we'll see a General Election before article 50 gets triggered. The campaign would be interesting, the Lib Dems and SNP would campaign on Remaining, but what about Labour and the Tories? What about UKIP? It'd be nice to have a debate and a vote on what kind of Brexit people wants.

Speaking of that, I'm quite surprised to see you're backing May. Again, I might be wrong, but to me, taking a slow and steady approach, with a mostly Remain PM will likely end up in what should be your worst nightmare: the Norwegian model of basically still being subject to EU regulation, but without a voice in the system (Actually, it's probably going to be something even closer than the Norwegian model, since the UK is bound to want stuff like ongoing passporting of its financial institutions in the EU). Without the UK in, stuff like the ECB's ongoing effort to have Euro currency swaps move to within the Eurozone rather than the City won't be kept in check. And even Farage is now willing to have the UK contribute to the EU's budget post-Brexit.

I'm pro-EU, but as a good Leftist I must say that this scenario, the UK still de facto anchored to the EU while not having a voice as the City's lobbyist greatly pleases me. But what's in it for you eurosceptics? Shouldn't you wish for a general breakdown or relation that would lead to a real Brexit? Or do you merely see it as a stepping stone, a way to keep disruption to a minimum while you can then work on slowly unmooring the UK from the EU, one treaty at a time?

Edit: I also find it funny that Corbyn is blamed for the Brexit when the proportion of Labour voters that voted Remain (63%) is the same as the proportion of SNP voters that voted Remain (64%). Yet Sturgeon is a genius and Corbyn is bad, for some reasons.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

DoubleEdit: El Faragio resign as UKIP leader! Is there really no one at all to lead any of the Party? I'm expecting the Green to collapse any second now.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #260 on: July 04, 2016, 04:31:08 am »

Honestly I know it is a bit... of an odd thing to say

But maybe instead of changing leaders they should just call another election.
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Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #261 on: July 04, 2016, 04:33:38 am »

How would election under the "leadership" of Cameron for the Tories help? Nah, both parties need to sort themselves out and decide what they're standing for on the issue of post-Brexit negotiations before a GE can be held.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
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Orange Wizard

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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #263 on: July 04, 2016, 05:10:35 am »

The real question is, why did 4% of UKIP voters vote Remain, when the sole purpose of UKIP was to promote leaving the EU
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evilcherry

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #264 on: July 04, 2016, 05:11:19 am »

How would election under the "leadership" of Cameron for the Tories help? Nah, both parties need to sort themselves out and decide what they're standing for on the issue of post-Brexit negotiations before a GE can be held.
Tories now look like they have Thatcher lite, or May on their helm for at least another term. Gove has horribly overplayed his hand - he suddenly found himself without allies, and for worse he don't even have his own momentum to claim popular support.

As for labour, Blarites and Europhile progressives have so little in common that they have looser ties to each other than it is now. Some form of horse trading between Progressive Alliance (which should be PC + Greens + Momentum, perhaps Lib Dems) and Blarite party, mainly to stop tory or UKIP gaining marginal seats, would be better for everyone.

Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #265 on: July 04, 2016, 05:38:52 am »

What's PC? There is also a bid by Andrea Leadsom, who doesn't have the backing of May, but was pro-Leave.
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Erkki

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #267 on: July 04, 2016, 06:42:36 am »

Soo... The loser didnt want to lose and the winner didnt want to win?  :)
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #268 on: July 04, 2016, 07:06:13 am »

Corbyn might have the support of a small minority of his MPS, in parliament, but 100% of UKIP's MP tweeted a smiley on news that Farage was to step down...  ;)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 07:08:15 am by Starver »
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Frumple

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #269 on: July 04, 2016, 07:16:08 am »

... cute. MP being singular wasn't a typo, was it?
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