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Author Topic: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)  (Read 2987 times)

TheFlame52

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Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2016, 02:47:32 pm »

But goblins and humans already have generated site administrators. Why do I need to put in my own? Also, making them playable, this is supposed to be a worldgen experiment.

As for what to make conquerors, I prefer humans. Occasionally the random values spit out someone who is perfect for conquest. Also, humans do better in battle because they're bigger than other races. I did some science a bit ago on who 'wins' in worldgen, and it's usually humans.

NCommander

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Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2016, 02:52:28 pm »

Generated nobles are kinda wonky. In worldgen, humans and elfs always seem to have diplomats to make peace, but they don't show up unless they're in the raws. The conquered site one is special, but no one has scienced it to figure out how to make to go.

In terms of species stats, elfs actually are the strongest of the four civs, since they have a natural speed boost, can domesticate anything in their biomes, etc. Elfs in iron or steel can murder pretty much anything in a straight up fight.

I think to make them conquer vs pillage, try driving up their slave ethic which should get them to conquer the site.
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Quote from: TheFlame52
Fucking hell man, you aren't just getting the short end of the stick, you're being beaten with it.
Quote from: NRDL
Is your plan really to flush water into hell, and have the CARP marines fight them without threat of flame or disease?  If so, you are awesome, and one of the greatest DF military visionaries I've seen yet ( not that I've seen that many, or any, for that matter )

FantasticDorf

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Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2016, 03:10:57 pm »

But goblins and humans already have generated site administrators. Why do I need to put in my own? Also, making them playable, this is supposed to be a worldgen experiment.

As for what to make conquerors, I prefer humans. Occasionally the random values spit out someone who is perfect for conquest. Also, humans do better in battle because they're bigger than other races. I did some science a bit ago on who 'wins' in worldgen, and it's usually humans.

Splicing in your own and the wider range of nobles to the pool (they simply puppet the leaders procedurally not actually send a noble) offers control to yourself, both on site and off site and enriches the legends mode immensely. You're entitled to form your own opinion on what you view as the categorical best.

Its also guaranteed that it is implemented if you do it yourself on the off chance that goblins just ignore it and prefer to (because its not decided by the player but the game, the 'demon monarch' probably doesn't care) raze the perfectly fine settlement.

The secret of my goblins compared to your humans is that they adapt their armies for multi-racial converts (dwarves have marital trances = valuable, human recruits are larger = valuable, elves breed fast and nobody likes elves anyway so they are good fodder = valuable?) on top of their already crushing numbers, becoming a horde like the should be.

Having goblins also be playable has benefits besides just a different style of play from playing a evil race (semi-sentients flock to you, lack of ethics, cannibalism and constant hostility), lots of multi-race citizens from babysnatching and former slaves pass through your embark. Its good to be bad. If this kind of thing sticks around to the army arc, its is going to be veeery interesting to see how it fleshes out when you're at the helm of the vile forces of darkness.

Edit - In response to Ncommander, the speed bonus is nice but taming 'any creature' is kind of exaggeration for you mean that the civ entity can, not actually individual elves (until it becomes so via some kind of druidism magic rework)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 03:12:47 pm by FantasticDorf »
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NCommander

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Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2016, 03:41:30 pm »

No, in game, being at peace with wildlife means you civ automatically knows how to domestically anything in their home biome. If you embark as elfs, and check the z->Animals menu, you'll get several pages of animals domesticated.
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Quote from: TheFlame52
Fucking hell man, you aren't just getting the short end of the stick, you're being beaten with it.
Quote from: NRDL
Is your plan really to flush water into hell, and have the CARP marines fight them without threat of flame or disease?  If so, you are awesome, and one of the greatest DF military visionaries I've seen yet ( not that I've seen that many, or any, for that matter )

TheFlame52

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Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2016, 04:05:34 pm »

So I've finished with the maximum-hostility world.

It isn't as impressive as the last one.

1/4 dwarven nations remain, 2/4 elven nations remain, 3/4 goblin nations remain, 4/4 human nations remain. Some interesting nations:
 - The Fang of Kindling, elves, who conquered another neighboring nation of elves.
 - The Routed Laces, elves, who conquered two nations of dwarves and goblins.
 - The Awe-Inspiring Dungeons, goblins, who conquered two nations of elves and dwarves while fending off their goblin neighbors. They also have the only remaining demon master.
 - The Turquoise Realm, humans, who pillaged and destroyed a kobold cave.

Now I'm going to try that again, but this time with no beasts so every death is due to war.


This is all for fort mode, though. Anyone can be a conqueror in fort mode. I'm talking about worldgen. Also, I have not seen a site get razed since like 0.34, with the exception of kobold caves.

FantasticDorf

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Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2016, 04:30:46 pm »

No, in game, being at peace with wildlife means you civ automatically knows how to domestically anything in their home biome. If you embark as elfs, and check the z->Animals menu, you'll get several pages of animals domesticated.

Incorrect.

That's the entity token  DFwiki - ANY_PET_RACE - Entity token for elves that is [USE_ANY_PET_RACE] animalmen have the same but arent a civ. The fundamentals of it being able to tame anything is true but its not actually a elf racially constrained thing. Swap out all the elves in the elven civilisation for goblins and it works the same.

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FantasticDorf

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Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2016, 04:54:01 pm »

This is all for fort mode, though. Anyone can be a conqueror in fort mode. I'm talking about worldgen. Also, I have not seen a site get razed since like 0.34, with the exception of kobold caves.

No its not. Having functional nobles on the ground makes for better settlements because new nobles will occupy dark goblin pits (meaning each militia leader and subordinates are running around doing thier job, and the game would still be workable if you played from the perspective of a goblin civ)

You can play or you can just watch the world gen fight it out. Each settlement with properly established trade (via broker rather than procedural markets which are iffy) will also get caravans of goods and a market mandatorily if im led to believe (as viewed from a adventure mode perspective of observing the local trade depot) meaning that there is a distribution of wealth across the goblin civ, rather than it being 100% local (of course again, interesting to see when economy supply/demand is properly established with persistent caravans, i expect the goblins to be weakened by it and to source localised materials without modding, meaning mish-mashes of goblins wearing iron, some in copper and most in leather arriving to sieges sourced from their homes)

Its just a notable improvement on both sides, fortress mode and observing from legends mode.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 04:55:33 pm by FantasticDorf »
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sirvente

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Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2016, 07:33:13 pm »

I've seen a few sites get razed after extensive tinkering with the entities file though I can't remember what I did. Something's clearly wrong with how the ai deals with enemy sites though, you regularly see them conquering sites they don't like or tolerate, I think toady did something when he rewrote megabeast rampages
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TheFlame52

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Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2016, 08:19:29 pm »

I should do a world where just humans are hostile, then run it for a thousand years and see if they exterminate everyone.

EDIT: I'm doing just that. I'm in the 400s and humans seem to be winning, followed by elves.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 09:04:39 pm by TheFlame52 »
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TheFlame52

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Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2016, 01:54:11 pm »

The world was boring and lagged out Legends Viewer.

I think to make them conquer vs pillage, try driving up their slave ethic which should get them to conquer the site.
Humans already have it at acceptable, I'm going to push it up to required.

EDIT: I think the problem with pillaging/conquering is that a site needs to be depopulated before it can be conquered, hence all the pillaging.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 02:11:23 pm by TheFlame52 »
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