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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 750218 times)

burned

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1005 on: December 02, 2016, 04:09:40 pm »

Is there any consideration to including music and so on in the adventure mode? It strikes me as odd it doesn't work in adventure as is.
Is there any consideration to including music and so on in the adventure mode? It strikes me as odd it doesn't work in adventure as is.
(sorry, but you didn't make it limegreen, and I want the answer to this question)

Quote from: Dwarf Fortress Talk #22
Threetoe: The next question is from Luis and he asks, "What do you think version 1.0 would be like, in terms of gameplay elements, and also content features and interface, and may I add, music?"
Toady: It's hard to say. I mean, I don't even know if 1.0 is a special point anymore. We had wanted to get at least some kind of tutorial thing in. We had been thinking of doing seasonal music pieces and so on, but it's one of those things where it's hard to say that we're just going to stop and do some sort of graphical thing, and the mods are so far ahead of us anyway that it's almost pointless at this point to even consider doing that. So we're thinking mainly in terms of just the features and content in the game. I'm not sure how you differentiate those from gameplay elements.

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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1006 on: December 02, 2016, 08:40:17 pm »

It seems straightforward enough now, but I think the real test'll be the next set of several consecutive bug-fix releases.

several consecutive bug-fix releases.

Yesssss. ;w;
Not sure what you're expecting here, but he means the stream of releases that always (despite some people's insistence that it doesn't happen) follows a major update including bug fixes and suggestions. These are pretty frequent at first so that's when we'll see if maintaining a 32 bit DF will slow things down.
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1007 on: December 02, 2016, 09:42:38 pm »

Yeah, you act as if 0.42.02-05 and 0.43.02-05 weren't several consecutive bug-fix releases.

Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1008 on: December 03, 2016, 12:04:53 am »

Do I have to drag out the quote pointing out how the last dozen or so releases have focused disproportionately on adding or changing content? >.o
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Rockphed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1009 on: December 03, 2016, 01:00:02 am »

Do I have to drag out the quote pointing out how the last dozen or so releases have focused disproportionately on adding or changing content? >.o

I just checked.  Of the last 14 releases that did not bump the primary version number, only 3 of them had "new stuff" listed in their release notes.  Now, true, some of them were "hot fix to fix error in feature release that could cause your computer to come alive and kill you", but by and large they were focused on getting rid of bugs.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1010 on: December 03, 2016, 04:31:08 am »

I disagree with Rockphed's assessment and support Random_Dragon's sentiment:

0.43.05: 64 bits. 2/3 bugs fixed.
0.43.04: New compiler (not mentioned). 6/12 bugs fixed. This includes introduction of armor damage and new combat mechanics for forces which are listed as "tweaks".
0.43.03: 3/20 bugs fixed.
0.43.02: 5/2 bugs fixed.
0.43.01: 12 new things. 1/7 bugs fixed.
0.42.06: 6 new things. 5/6 bugs fixed.
0.42.05: 3 new things. 7/12 bugs fixed. This includes zombie nerfing/rework.
0.42.04: 2 new things. 7/9 bugs fixed.
0.42.03: 15/15 bugs fixed.
0.42.02: 6/3 bugs fixed.

This sums up to 6 "new stuff" releases out of the last 10 (one is a number bump prompted by the fact that the amount of new stuff bumped the number, which I don't see as a reason to exclude it from the count. It's still in the middle of the latest arc). I stopped there because the "too little bug fixing" complaint is mainly related to the latest arc, which started with 0.42.01. The main point is that the last two releases were mainly new stuff that wasn't noted in the release notes, and fairly thin in fixing bugs introduced 0.42.01 onward.
I realize we're in disagreement over what an appropriate amount of bug fixing vs progress is, and hope we can agree on disagreeing rather than starting a new flame war, though.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1011 on: December 03, 2016, 06:21:04 am »

Thanks for the answers, oh mighty binarysmith, maker of the playable universe!
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1012 on: December 03, 2016, 10:31:10 am »

When you say "Artifact Agents", do you mean Ring-wraiths?

More like spies.
I asked him about it in an email and he talked a bit about it.
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k33n

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1013 on: December 03, 2016, 02:05:21 pm »

Would anything ever convince you to bake in dwarf therapist?
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burned

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1014 on: December 03, 2016, 02:29:11 pm »

Would anything ever convince you to bake in dwarf therapist?

Quote from: Dwarf Fortress Talk #22
. . .So we have decided, first off, that we're not really working to change VPL at this moment. We have some things that we're going to do later (we'll get to that in a moment) that will point toward big changes toward VPL. But the first push on job priorities is just going to be about the basic 'job selection' model. So right now, as people know, the jobs pick the dwarves, and that leads to bad selection sometimes. The job will just snatch up the first, nearest qualified dwarf to do the job, regardless of whatever jobs that dwarf might want to do, and that can lead to some really sub-par selections.
   And there's a kind of symmetric problem if dwarves pick jobs. They'll pick jobs that another dwarf might be better suited for. So you can't really have jobs picking dwarves or dwarves picking jobs; you need to have a system that merges it all together and has a delay incorporated so that things can work themselves out. Not a big delay, almost unnoticeable, but just enough to get the right dwarf to the right job. And this will allow you to do things like taking a skilled dwarf, that you'd normally be forced to turn off their hauling, so that they would do the jobs you want them to do. And now you'd be able to leave their hauling on, for instance. They do hauling when they were truly idle, but they would still be able to go do their appropriate jobs when they were available. And by the same token you wouldn't have... We noticed that a lot of people were setting up this 'peasant class' of dwarves, unskilled dwarves, that were just set up for hauling. That should be a little less necessary now.
Threetoe: Except now we're going to be working with the last of these projects will be to implement new peasant classes of dwarves.
Toady: He he he. Yeah this is the kind of VPL change we were talking about. It should be exciting to see the status of your dwarves realized. And certain ones you'll be able to control more than others. Now there will be a circumstance under which you can control any dwarf to a large degree, and that's going to be the new 'Do This Now' prioritization for jobs, which will just snatch up the nearest dwarf that can do the job (like pulling a lever), and force them to do it. They'll drop what they're doing and save your fortress. Might stress them out a little bit, depending on the kind of dwarf, but you'll be able to do that finally. And furthermore we are mindful of things like the trading jobs, the harvest, and so on, and hopefully that'll be handled with the new job selection model overall. We are trying to stay away from spreadsheets and numbers approaches that kind of open up every single job to be ranked, you know, according to different numbers for each dwarf or workshop because that is unmanageable when the number of dwarves get high.
Threetoe: Also, it's a hint where we're going with this, which is to get rid of VPL all together, eventually.
Toady: Yeah, we would really like to restrict VPL possibly to a smaller number of dwarves that are actually the types of dwarves you would be ordering around like that. And we're also aware of kind of the 'work crew' approaches that people have, and that will also be something that is under consideration when we do understand 'fortress-citizen' status a little better.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1015 on: December 03, 2016, 08:16:37 pm »

Short answer, no.
Skills by spreadsheet will be replaced when the time comes, thus making utils like therapist (the skill selection part of it anyway) obsolete.
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lethosor

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1016 on: December 04, 2016, 08:41:27 pm »

I disagree with Rockphed's assessment and support Random_Dragon's sentiment:

...

0.43.03: 3/20 bugs fixed.
I'm not sure where you got that number. In the devlog, there are 3 things under "major bug fixes" and 20 under "other bug fixes/tweaks", which I think could be it, but that second category also includes bug fixes. I'd also like to point out the changelog on Mantis, which lists 25 issues fixed in 0.43.03.

Short answer, no.
Skills by spreadsheet will be replaced when the time comes, thus making utils like therapist (the skill selection part of it anyway) obsolete.
In addition, baking in DT would require rewriting a large portion of it and take up a lot of time (granted, some changes would make it simpler without the need to attach to DF externally).
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letsdance

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1017 on: December 04, 2016, 09:59:16 pm »

Skills by spreadsheet will be replaced when the time comes, thus making utils like therapist (the skill selection part of it anyway) obsolete.
i doubt that. whatever they do, we will still need micromanagement, and - as you say - the skill selection is only a part. for many people (myself included) it's unplayable without DT (which is why i haven't played DF for a long time because there is no released DT for the current version). adding DT would improve the game alot more than all the other features. almost the same goes for dfhack.

i do realize they are relying on the community to provide these tools, but it's a bad solution, because the community is too slow (tools have become too complex) for that.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1018 on: December 04, 2016, 10:10:08 pm »

Skills by spreadsheet will be replaced when the time comes, thus making utils like therapist (the skill selection part of it anyway) obsolete.
i doubt that. whatever they do, we will still need micromanagement, and - as you say - the skill selection is only a part. for many people (myself included) it's unplayable without DT (which is why i haven't played DF for a long time because there is no released DT for the current version). adding DT would improve the game alot more than all the other features. almost the same goes for dfhack.

i do realize they are relying on the community to provide these tools, but it's a bad solution, because the community is too slow (tools have become too complex) for that.
Doubt it all you like, I'm just paraphrasing Toady. If you doubt everything he says why even bother following the game and making suggestions.

Some of us turned off DT one day and discovered that the game is just as fun, if not more so, without it. It's only really needed for those who want to spend hours micromanaging their dorfs. And beginners who haven't found the (obtuse) menus yet.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 10:16:09 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Rockphed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1019 on: December 05, 2016, 01:06:08 am »

Some of us turned off DT one day and discovered that the game is just as fun, if not more so, without it. It's only really needed for those who want to spend hours micromanaging their dorfs. And beginners who haven't found the (obtuse) menus yet.

I think I used it once way back in 40d.  This was the same time I downloaded a mod with ambushing fliers who came equipped with built-in weapons.  I think I lost a fortress and spent 5 reclaim attempts getting killed off by giant forest spiders that had taken up residence.

I kinda miss the large reclaims.  Has toady said anything about getting them back?
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