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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 704065 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1995 on: June 25, 2017, 10:10:51 pm »

Thing is, it used to be that goblins would show up within a reasonable time frame without modding. It's like the happiness system. Yes, it technically works, but it's balanced so poorly that you don't need to worry about invaders anymore.
They would appear out of thin air when required. But you already knew that.

Would sure be nice to have siege triggers in the regular options though (or even just advanced worldgen - weird that it's limited to titans only). Would make it easier for new folk to see what's up. Does the Starter Pack feature this yet? Seems like it's even easier than disabling aquifers.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 10:28:58 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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bluephoenix

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1996 on: June 25, 2017, 10:45:19 pm »

I don't know why people are so obsessed with huge sieges coming every year, there are more things to do in the game.

Because it's a part of the game that doesn't even remotely work anymore. Protip: disabling siegers entirely if you don't want them is a lot easier than getting invaders to hurry their asses up and invade you when the feature's broken. You disliking the feature is not relevant to the problem of the feature being broken.
I never said I dislike sieges, just that I'm happy with not having them every year.

Like Shonai_Dweller said, they used to appear out of thin air where as now they are real armies from real populations.
The feature is not broken at all, you seem to not understand how it works.
I think you are looking for the wrong game here, Toady will most likely never re-introduce those goblin armies that came out of nowhere just so there is something to siege your fort and I'm glad for it.

You know, you can download the older version where sieges weren't "broken". I remember 0.28.40d used to have armies that showed up every year which didn't make too much sense but there you go, go nuts.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 10:47:11 pm by bluephoenix »
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1997 on: June 25, 2017, 11:07:15 pm »

...do neither of you comprehend what I said? I explicitly said they aren't broken in theory, just poorly balanced. When invasions take so long that players have to go out of their way to confirm the feature even works at all, that's a sign that balance isn't working.

I'm not saying that goblin armies should start appearing out of thin air, I'm saying that something needs to be rebalanced in some way. Bare minimum, while an army is IN THEORY capable of crossing the world in a few weeks as you , that sure as shit never happens in actual gameplay. I'd be fine with goblin armies taking up to a year or a year and a half to arrive, because that would be an improvement over it taking several years for them to arrive.

To preempt the inevitable misreading, let me further clarify that: I mean that I have had goblin armies, from civs that're well within neighbor range, take multiple years to arrive after reaching the siege triggers.

bluephoenix

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1998 on: June 25, 2017, 11:26:09 pm »

...do neither of you comprehend what I said? I explicitly said they aren't broken in theory
Because it's a part of the game that doesn't even remotely work anymore.


Anyway,
I mean that I have had goblin armies, from civs that're well within neighbor range, take multiple years to arrive after reaching the siege triggers.
You see, siege triggers are not a guarantee that you are going to get sieged. They simply tell the game that you are free game now.
The goblin civ still has to decide to attack you instead of "Helmsgood" a few region tiles to the left of you, they need to be close enough, they need to have enough population and they need to not be fighting anyone else at the time.
These are additional checks after the siege triggers that need to be met before they will send an army to you. So it is working as intended, if you want a higher frequency of attacks you will have to mod the game in one of several ways.

The game is super easy to mod so if you don't like the way vanilla works, you can always change it to your hearts desire.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1999 on: June 26, 2017, 12:54:18 am »

Ok. So before this bit of the thread gets removed and placed in it's own section for us to dispute the difference between words like 'broken' and 'not working' in minute detail, let's recap. The question boiled down to 'please balance the game' the answer is (almost certainly), 'Sure, one day. No timeline'. Sound about right?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 12:55:59 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2000 on: June 26, 2017, 01:05:37 am »

Which was the answer I expected. I mean yeah, I wish it'd be fixed, but I know it eventually will be fixed (or be obsoleted by other problems).

Only in this thread would saying "yes I agree, it'd be nice to see this fixed" spark a shitstorm via some pedant arguing over goddamn semantics.

PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2001 on: June 26, 2017, 03:19:26 am »

The main "broken" part about armies (ignoring bugs like hello/goodbye sieges) is probably that the game currently doesn't know how to make armies that come from the civ, but produces armies exclusively drawn from a single site. When the site is depopulated (or too small from the beginning) you're out of bodies for the armies. Also, sieges come from that same site: the game doesn't know how to shift the origin. These issues probably belong to the army revamping, but might be touched on when civs are updated. Anyway, it's not likely to happen within the next two arcs.

Siege triggers for races and megabeasts are in the raws rather than the world gen. My guess is that it's to allow them to be set individually. Personally I would prefer them to be set by world gen and have that value be possible to override by introducing tags to the raws.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2002 on: June 26, 2017, 04:26:07 am »

But there are armies being produced from other sites who go to attack non-player sites, so even if it's somewhat abstract, it's not true to say the game doesn't know how to do it.

Artifact seeking armies and armies of sites who've had enough of your raids will (if they work properly) come from sites other than the closest one to you, so it's also not true to say nothing will happen in the next two updates (probably).
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ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2003 on: June 26, 2017, 04:35:09 am »

Sheesh, didn't think such a huge debate would come from me asking that question :E

LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2004 on: June 26, 2017, 05:15:55 am »

Armok will not be pleased with this discussion. Instead he will send monthly goblin sieges for some, and stinky hippie visits with floral bouquets to others.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2005 on: June 26, 2017, 02:07:04 pm »

I've always seen it presented as poor/changable military goal leader's fault, goblins and invaders are usually too busy bashing the rest of the world/own conflicts to beat up some backwater player fortress unless you have a enormous adamantine sign saying "INVADE HERE" to re-prioritize you as important. Again we can hope that more complex diplomacy & disputes can help iron those things out momentarily ahead of future arcs so civ's don't get so confused.

That thing you mention Max sounds like the blood got confused on the point of origin without being able to splatter from the wound when it entered and the bolt vanished inside the goblin instead of bouncing off and getting dislodged, so jumped straight to the weapon instead because the bolt is a literal extension of the weapon rather than a component, as a layman's analysis.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2006 on: June 26, 2017, 02:54:58 pm »

Remember we are getting scenarios, some of them might involve to man choke points fortress or reclaim and hold strategic places. Those might be action packed fortress some of you yearn for.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2007 on: June 26, 2017, 06:23:07 pm »

To preempt the inevitable misreading, let me further clarify that: I mean that I have had goblin armies, from civs that're well within neighbor range, take multiple years to arrive after reaching the siege triggers.

You are almost definitely wrong about that. I have actually tracked armies on the march, they can cross a medium world in less than two months. How can you tell they're taking multiple years to arrive rather than, you know, just deciding not to besiege you until then?

Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2008 on: June 26, 2017, 07:45:05 pm »

Again, just because they can cross the land that fast doesn't mean they will in practice. Some element of this along the way is functioning differently to such an extent that it messes with gameplay balance.

It can and does take over two years to receive any sieges after reaching the siege triggers. I know this from personal experience in prior forts. Or are you calling me a liar?

Egan_BW

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2009 on: June 26, 2017, 08:32:27 pm »

The point is that goblins don't just send armies the moment that you reach the triggers, those triggers just mean that it becomes possible for goblins to attack you. Goblins will launch attacks when they feel like it, which is totally arbitrary and probably poor game design, but it does reflect the fact that the world does not revolve around your fortress anymore.
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Perhaps you've seen it. Maybe in a dream.
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