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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 750027 times)

Nopenope

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2160 on: July 24, 2017, 04:43:12 am »

How many passes do you envision for the myth gen release? In the case of the cake being too big to eat in one go, which elements are low priority and less likely to make it?

If you raid kobold civs, will they send full-blown retaliatory ambushes like other civs?

Can you raid cave civs (i.e. animal men) in the unlikely event of them having artifacts?

Can you raid necro towers to retrieve their books about the secrets of life and death (considered artifacts)? Can necros retaliate in response?

Can you raid non-civ specific sites like shrines, labyrinths, lairs, etc.?

If you raid a civ of a given race, does the whole race stop trading with you, i.e. is it possible to have both caravans and invaders from a single race at the same time?

Do named objects have artifact properties, e.g. will the naming of a weapon in worldgen increase its effectiveness in combat?

If enough demands from a goblin civ are being satisfied, can you enter a state of peace with them?


Can you see your raiding party in real time on the mini-map?

Are koblolds still too crippled by their inability to speak articulate language to make clear demands as other civs would, i.e. are there interactions still limited to them trying to steal your stuff?

Do kobold bring mounts with them in ambushes/theft attempts? What kind of mounts do they have now?

Can you raid sites for no reason whatsoever (i.e. without an artifact or a kidnapped baby to retrieve/rescue)?

EDIT: thanks for the replies, folks. I un-greenified the questions that were completely answered.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 06:12:44 am by Nopenope »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2161 on: July 24, 2017, 04:55:15 am »

Various answers (some partial) based on Toady's previous replies and devblog:

How many passes do you envision for the myth gen release? In the case of the cake being too big to eat in one go, which elements are low priority and less likely to make it?

Can you see your raiding party in real time on the mini-map?
No. It's a report when they get back.

Can you raid kobold sites? If so, will they send full-blown retaliatory ambushes like other civs?
You will be able to raid kobold sites.

Are koblolds still too crippled by their inability to speak articulate language to make clear demands as other civs would, i.e. are there interactions still limited to them trying to steal your stuff?

Do kobold bring mounts with them in ambushes/theft attempts? What kind of mounts do they have now?
They'll bring their pets. It's not clear yet if they'll mount them.

Can you raid cave civs in the unlikely event of them having artifacts?
Yes. Kobolds will steal artifacts so may well have them.

Can you raid necro towers to retrieve their books about the secrets of life and death (considered artifacts)? Can necros retaliate in response?

Can you raid sites for no reason whatsoever (i.e. without an artifact or a kidnapped baby to retrieve/rescue)?
Yes. General raid to cause mischief.

Can you raid non-civ specific sites like shrines, labyrinths, lairs, etc.?

If you raid a civ of a given race, does the whole race stop trading with you, i.e. is it possible to have both caravans and invaders from a single race at the same time?
Not if it works the way it does right now. A state of war means no traders. And nothing's been mentioned about changes to merchants.

How are the odds of a raid's being successful calculated? What parameters are taken into account?
Toady mentioned that more calculations are going on now than previously with equipment being taken into account.

Do named objects have artifact properties, e.g. will the naming of a weapon in worldgen increase its effectiveness in combat?

If enough demands from a goblin civ are being satisfied, can you enter a state of peace with them?
Generally you start off in a state of peace with goblins already. It's just that they'll pick any old excuse to go to war with you over values and ethics mainly.

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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2162 on: July 24, 2017, 07:39:13 am »

:
Are koblolds still too crippled by their inability to speak articulate language to make clear demands as other civs would, i.e. are there interactions still limited to them trying to steal your stuff?
:
If you raid a civ of a given race, does the whole race stop trading with you, i.e. is it possible to have both caravans and invaders from a single race at the same time?
:
If enough demands from a goblin civ are being satisfied, can you enter a state of peace with them?
Note: De-Toadified and abbreviated quote.
- Kobolds are still unable to speak, so there won't be any negotiations.

- I believe war and trade remains on the civ level, which means that you can have trade with one civ (e.g. your parent) while being at war with another (dwarven) civ. The current (and near future) limit is that you trade with only one civ belonging to each race, so if that's the one you go to war with, trade with it (and thus the race) is lost, but if it's another civ you should still be able to have both peace and war with different civs of the same race. War with civs that are not your "trade" relation is new, however.

- You can't be at peace with the goblins. The best you can achieve is not yet being at war with them ("---" pre embark). Given that goblins serve the dual purpose of being just another sapient civ building race, while at the same time serving the purpose of being the unspeakable evil hordes ruled by demons out to enslave the world, I doubt you'll be able to negotiate peace until the two purposes have been split some time in the future (logically goblins with a non demonic overlord could behave like a "normal" civ [with their peculiar ethics {unlike elves...}]).
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KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2163 on: July 24, 2017, 07:56:07 am »

- Kobolds are still unable to speak, so there won't be any negotiations.

What about just a screen full of *FGHTHIS THIUNKY UEHNDJD*?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2164 on: July 24, 2017, 08:46:17 am »

Quote
If you raid a civ of a given race, does the whole race stop trading with you, i.e. is it possible to have both caravans and invaders from a single race at the same time?
Not if it works the way it does right now. A state of war means no traders. And nothing's been mentioned about changes to merchants.

Right, yeah, sorry see what you mean now. Wars exist between civs, not races. Theoretically you'll be at war with one human, elf or dwarf civ and not another.

I asked a question earlier this month about 'active' seasons and if they'll still work the same. If they do, you're likely to get attacked by enemy dwarves while your home civ merchants are trying to trade with you. That's not gonna be too amusing the 100th time it happens...
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2165 on: July 24, 2017, 10:04:39 am »

- Kobolds are still unable to speak, so there won't be any negotiations.

What about just a screen full of *FGHTHIS THIUNKY UEHNDJD*?

That would be so gloriously stupid that I'd love to see it.

Now just imagine if agreeing to the demand leads to the dwarves handing over a random item because they don't know what the hell the kobolds are even here for. And then they walk away with some guy's moldy old boot, content with that even though it wasn't the artifact they wanted.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2166 on: July 24, 2017, 01:02:47 pm »

Can you see your raiding party in real time on the mini-map?

From toady's comments you can't see them in real time but you will get information of the journey dispensed via rumors & confirmation when they arrive back (or fail to arrive) along with information on the locations along the route.

Can you raid kobold sites? If so, will they send full-blown retaliatory ambushes like other civs?

Do kobold bring mounts with them in ambushes/theft attempts? What kind of mounts do they have now?

Can you raid sites for no reason whatsoever (i.e. without an artifact or a kidnapped baby to retrieve/rescue)?

Yes to all of the above, this was covered in Toady's latest FotF reply with a giant cave spider called lurbin, assumedly creatures that can be mounted will be brought along too. Generally also from toady's comments wandering into a settlement for no good reason will prompt a imminent raid or attempt to reclaim/steal a artifact there.

As to the cave civ question, i dont think toady has put in the ability to travel via the subterreanean world edges so it'd be unlikely and cave civs are sparse & poor anyway.

Can you raid necro towers to retrieve their books about the secrets of life and death (considered artifacts)? Can necros retaliate in response?

Can you raid non-civ specific sites like shrines, labyrinths, lairs, etc.?

Stands to be seen when the actual release drops, but there was slab related questions a while ago and the object will belong to the necromancer (and since the necromancer owns the tower site, it is likely). I personally wonder if outcasts that sometimes hide in these worldgen minor places might attack as local resistance people besides the monsters that could reside there.

There's another good chance they might not actually be places your party can visit yet or won't find much reason to visit there again after clearing it out once.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2167 on: July 24, 2017, 06:12:44 pm »

Does the new xml you're making available include the procedurally generated instrument and music descriptions?

It's a shame there's really no way to explore these right now (barring starting up several adventurers, fortresses, etc) considering how much work seems to have put into them. Not much hope for anyone crazy enough to perfect the automatic dorvern music generator without more accessibility.
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ArmokGoB

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2168 on: July 25, 2017, 05:24:36 am »

I like the idea of a toroidal world for some sort of "plane of existence" out there.  But like bumber mentioned, if you portrayed the surface of the torus with squares, you would have stretching and shrinking because the circumference of the outside is greater than the circumference of the inside. 

But that got me thinking, what about an offset square grid? 


This would effectively work like a hexagon grid, but allows you to use the same quadrilateral graphical tiles as before.  If you mapped a torus or a long-lat sphere to a hash grid, you need bigger squares at the outer edge of the torus or at the equator of the sphere.  Alternatively use more squares instead of bigger squares.  So the total map is kind of a trapezoid instead of a big square.  Although I guess you could still do that with a hash-grid, now that I think about it...

I'm sure someone will want to point out that an offset-square/hexagon grid can be clumsy to navigate with keyboard, and for all these people, I would point out that all such problems could be solved by simply using a mouse.

My intuition tells me that this would be a pain in the beard to design for; both for the user and the programmer.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2169 on: July 25, 2017, 11:32:17 am »

Does the new xml you're making available include the procedurally generated instrument and music descriptions?

It's a shame there's really no way to explore these right now (barring starting up several adventurers, fortresses, etc) considering how much work seems to have put into them. Not much hope for anyone crazy enough to perfect the automatic dorvern music generator without more accessibility.
You can get at the instrument data using DFHack. It's located at df.global.world.raws.itemdefs.instruments. Other art form data can be found at
- df.global.world.poetic_forms
- df.global.world.musical_forms
- df.global.world.dance_forms
- df.global.world.scales; and
- df.global.world.rythms
Of course, you'd need to spend some effort piecing the info together.

Edit: As an aside while poking away at this, I found the Kobolds are musicians as well, apparently. The "jlubugujreelmus" is a percussion instrument of theirs in the world I poked at.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 11:41:27 am by PatrikLundell »
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Emiteal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2170 on: July 25, 2017, 04:10:57 pm »

I'm sorry for being so out of the loop, but I've been having trouble searching up an answer to something I've been wondering...

Does anyone know if the next release address the issue of immigrant wave size?

Main problem is I'm super picky about dwarves and labors, so I feel compelled to carefully examine and assign/reassign each migrant to the jobs I feel they ought to be doing. I don't want to have to kill immigrants or edit the raws every single season or otherwise directly influence the immigration issue... really, I want the more modest migration waves of 40d and 23a back. I did find a DFHack code for this, but I know I'm not the only one that's had issues with it killing my gameplay (so many search results, egads), so I'm just wondering if anyone knows if this is on the table or not?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2171 on: July 25, 2017, 04:24:18 pm »

Does the new xml you're making available include the procedurally generated instrument and music descriptions?

It's a shame there's really no way to explore these right now (barring starting up several adventurers, fortresses, etc) considering how much work seems to have put into them. Not much hope for anyone crazy enough to perfect the automatic dorvern music generator without more accessibility.
You can get at the instrument data using DFHack. It's located at df.global.world.raws.itemdefs.instruments. Other art form data can be found at
- df.global.world.poetic_forms
- df.global.world.musical_forms
- df.global.world.dance_forms
- df.global.world.scales; and
- df.global.world.rythms
Of course, you'd need to spend some effort piecing the info together.

Edit: As an aside while poking away at this, I found the Kobolds are musicians as well, apparently. The "jlubugujreelmus" is a percussion instrument of theirs in the world I poked at.
I'm sure there's lots of stuff dfhack can do. Would be nice not to be reliant on it though (besides which, it doesn't seem to be part of exportlegends yet, so it's still a fair amount of effort to get at the info). Yeah, I noticed kobolds make percussion instruments while tweaking their raws the other day.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2172 on: July 25, 2017, 04:32:42 pm »

I'm sorry for being so out of the loop, but I've been having trouble searching up an answer to something I've been wondering...

Does anyone know if the next release address the issue of immigrant wave size?

Main problem is I'm super picky about dwarves and labors, so I feel compelled to carefully examine and assign/reassign each migrant to the jobs I feel they ought to be doing. I don't want to have to kill immigrants or edit the raws every single season or otherwise directly influence the immigration issue... really, I want the more modest migration waves of 40d and 23a back. I did find a DFHack code for this, but I know I'm not the only one that's had issues with it killing my gameplay (so many search results, egads), so I'm just wondering if anyone knows if this is on the table or not?
There is no reason to believe migrant size is being modified, and I suspect there are very different opinions as to what is the "right" one. DF already provide parameters to set the pop cap, and this can be used to limit the wave size (I used to set it to the current pop + 10 before I went for dead civs instead). The other way to restrict migration is to build up little wealth and trade little (as well as having lots of deaths in the fortress).
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2173 on: July 25, 2017, 04:36:22 pm »

Migrant mechanic overhaul is (according to current devnotes at least) planned for Scenarios (society, law and politics release). So probably a few years yet before that's thought about at all.
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Emiteal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2174 on: July 25, 2017, 04:48:02 pm »

Migrant mechanic overhaul is (according to current devnotes at least) planned for Scenarios (society, law and politics release). So probably a few years yet before that's thought about at all.

Gracias! I'll keep muddling by in the meantime. (:

(Obviously, fixing a micromanaging issue with a more technical and direct micromanagement of the raws -- or completely eschewing main gameplay components to address it -- is antithetical to the facets of the question posed.)
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