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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 690454 times)

Beag

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2175 on: July 25, 2017, 05:04:11 pm »

1. In some worlds will there be special ceremonies/rituals priests can/need to do to receive more power from their deity?
2. In some worlds will mortals be able to enter romantic relationships with deities?
3. If yes to 2 could the offspring of these relationships possibly be demigods?
4. Will it be possible demigods receive any special treatment from the churches that worship their divine parent?
5. In some worlds will demigods receive powers that reflect their divine parent?

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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2176 on: July 25, 2017, 05:24:06 pm »

1. In some worlds will there be special ceremonies/rituals priests can/need to do to receive more power from their deity?
2. In some worlds will mortals be able to enter romantic relationships with deities?
3. If yes to 2 could the offspring of these relationships possibly be demigods?
4. Will it be possible demigods receive any special treatment from the churches that worship their divine parent?
5. In some worlds will demigods receive powers that reflect their divine parent?

Weren't demi-god parents and such asked about last month or perhaps the month before? Answer was 'yes, have thought about this'. It's not part of Artifacts (or any of your other questions), so you probably won't get much more than that.
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Nopenope

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2177 on: July 26, 2017, 09:40:22 am »

A couple more:

What does 'start trouble' and 'generic raids' mean? Do you just send dwarves randomly killing people and destroying buildings or is there a general purpose such as bringing back loot (in what form?), prisoners, animals, knowledge etc.

Is there an experience boost in combat/tracking skills when dwarves come back from raids? Is it random, fixed or target-dependent?

Can you send a long term resident mercenary to raid his own civ?

Are there any implications off-map if some of the dwarves you send are vampires/werebeasts/necromancers (i.e. does the werebeast fight in transformed form if the raid happens during a full moon, does the necromancer raises dead off-map, does the vampire feed upon his fellow squad members etc.)?

Does a raid squad need food and drink or do they just feed on whatever they find in the countryside?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 06:13:28 am by Nopenope »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2178 on: July 26, 2017, 10:17:00 am »

A couple more:

What does 'start trouble' and 'generic raids' mean? Do you just send dwarves randomly killing people and destroying buildings or is there a general purpose such as bringing back loot (in what form?), prisoners, animals, knowledge etc.

Is there an experience boost in combat/tracking skills when dwarves come back from raids? Is it random, fixed or target-dependent?

Can you send a long term resident mercenary to raid his own civ?

If squad members have pets, infants or trained animals following them around are they sent along? Are they taken into account for combat?

Can you send the entirety of your fort to raids if applicable? Do you lose the game if there are no citizens on the map?


We will find out when the release happens, these are all technical questions we do not know ourselves and the release is arriving eventually and we can't do much more than speculate at the possibilities but shaking answers to the level of detail you might want from toady might be difficult.

Quote
Are there any implications off-map if some of the dwarves you send are vampires/werebeasts/necromancers (i.e. does the werebeast fight in transformed form if the raid happens during a full moon, does the necromancer raises dead off-map, does the vampire feed upon his fellow squad members etc.)?

Will probably depend on the quality of the simulation, if everything is simulated while they are out there all the while there might be fatalities.

Does a raid squad need food and drink or do they just feed on whatever they find in the countryside?
[/quote]

I would think that maybe equipping themselves with backpacks & waterskins usually reserved for the military beforehand might substitute this, but again dwarves depends on the quality of the simulation and whether toady doesn't just cheat by turning off these needs for the duration of the journey.

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Does the game keep track of whatever items/equipment the squad members were carrying with them and in the event of them getting killed at the site can an adventurer stumble upon said objects in the future?

This question has been asked already i think in previous responses, if you drop your weapons on a site rather than randomly in the wilderness (where the chance of finding it drops almost to 0 unless its a heirloom or artifact) then it will be added to the civ's storage, so yes to that question in a capacity.

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How are you notified if a squad simply never comes back (no survivors) and there is no retaliation? What exactly triggers the death notification and all that implies (bad thoughts etc.)?

Covered in toady's last response i think, they just hear rumors that travel through the game world and notify you eventually as to what happened to them. A few seasons maybe, nobody has any details except speculation on this matter.
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Miuramir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2179 on: July 26, 2017, 05:05:14 pm »

Does anyone know if the next release address the issue of immigrant wave size?

Main problem is I'm super picky about dwarves and labors, so I feel compelled to carefully examine and assign/reassign each migrant to the jobs I feel they ought to be doing. I don't want to have to kill immigrants or edit the raws every single season or otherwise directly influence the immigration issue... really, I want the more modest migration waves of 40d and 23a back. ...

There's a few ways to look at this.  To break things up into slightly more specific categories, we might choose to distinguish between:

* Immigrant: Someone who chooses to come to a fort, and the fort chooses to accept.  Either side may be a bit reluctant, but ultimately it is at least nominally an agreed-upon process.  There may be different sub-qualifications; noble / commoner, rich / poor, skilled / un, warrior / tradesman, and so on.  In an ideal world the player or the scenario could be a bit more specific about the sub-qualifications. 

* Refugee: Someone who is forced to leave their previous situation, and ends up at the fort, without the fort expecting them.  In small numbers, some forts may just treat these as the error bars on immigration; but in quantity or for forts that don't want more people it is a problem. 

* Transportee: Someone who is forcibly relocated to a fort (think Australia), but who is nominally free once they get there, albeit possibly with a delay or with lowered social status.  Depending on the relative situation of the fort and the Mountainhome, this may or may not be something the fort can influence or control.  (not currently implemented in stock)

* Slave: Someone who is forcibly relocated to a fort, and is not free afterward.  Note that by default dwarves don't do slavery.  In some settings they may be able to purchase freedom (Roman-esque), in some settings they may not but their children are free (Moslem-esque), in others they may be a permanent unfree underclass (historic North American-esque).  (not currently implemented in stock)

* Indenture: Similar to a transportee, but voluntary; someone who agrees to serve a fixed term after arrival, in exchange for transportation and getting set up once they get there.  They will eventually become free citizens.  (not currently implemented in stock)

* Visitor: While nominally visitors are temporary, some fraction of them may decide they like the fort and attempt to become immigrants.  Once slightly more complex worlds come into play, visitors may also turn into refugees occasionally (such as when their home gets destroyed while they are visiting).  (this has only recently been implemented in stock, and somewhat in flux)

* Mercenary: While more or less a visitor, there might eventually be long-term employees of a fort that are not members.  Historic civs have in various times had an elite unit from some other civ, frequently used as a guard for the head of state, or to provide unique skills (for example, the Swiss Guards at the Vatican, the Varangian Guard of the Byzantine emperors, etc.).  (not currently implemented per se in stock, but in a lot of ways the semi-implemented animal people fort inhabitants can end up along these lines)  Sometimes they may have the option to become citizens upon retirement, etc. 

* (nobility): Not sure what the right descriptor would be, but people sent by the mountainhome (etc.) whether the fort likes it or not.  Currently that's more or less just nobles; historically that might be traditional nobles, satraps, governor-generals, tax collectors, religious leaders (archbishops) or enforcers (inquisition), and so on.  They may come with considerable support staff; currently just royal consorts and guard, but consider the British Raj in India for an over-the-top historical example. 

Once we get into the Starting Scenarios arc, various scenarios will presumably allow or require limits on various of the above. 

The difficulty is that by default fortress migrants are treated by the game as approximately immigrants, whereas due to lack of sufficiently detailed controls some players think of them as closer to refugees.  There are only limited ways you can "signal" the player's desires, both as a game and as a simulation, that are currently implemented.  Population cap, trade, wealth, difficult location, dead worlds, etc. are crude signals designed for what is approximately the default scenario or for hacks around it, and some players prefer to play "scenarios" that are not yet implemented or supported.  You can't specify that you want *some* more dwarves, but only if they are X; where which players want what X on which occasions varies widely.  (Unmarried, military skills, tradesfolk I don't yet have, worshipers of a particular deity, NOT worshipers of some other deity, only red beards, only people with cheese-industry-related-skills plus anyone who is willing to carry stone blocks for our giant statue of cheese megaproject, or whatever.)

From a simulation standpoint, if you have a prosperous and healthy fort in an accessible location, it would be difficult to explain why you wouldn't get dwarves (and possibly others) showing up to better their own situation.  Artificial limits such as pop cap, while sometimes necessary for performance reasons, feel "gamey"; but we'd need far more complex stock mechanics to represent more historical approaches.  Hopefully the scenario arc will offer some options.   For instance, if the scenario was a religious / monastic one, you might have very few default migrants, but a lot of visitors, some of which would petition to "join the order" (become citizens of the fort); this sort of thing would require comparatively few additional mechanics.  Given the popularity of the play style, "starting dwarves and their descendants" will likely be worked in somehow without the trouble of generating a dead world. 
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2180 on: July 26, 2017, 11:21:42 pm »

"You can't specify that you want *some* more dwarves, but only if they are X; where which players want what X on which occasions varies widely. "

While ideally you'd signal this with outpost liaison, at least migrants should come with skills you lack and skills you use a lot of (i.e. if making mining megaproject you migrant waves are more likely to include miners.)

Emiteal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2181 on: July 27, 2017, 06:54:46 pm »

From a simulation standpoint, if you have a prosperous and healthy fort in an accessible location, it would be difficult to explain why you wouldn't get dwarves (and possibly others) showing up to better their own situation.

That was quite an extensive read, I very much enjoyed it! It'll be exciting when we see those kinds of mechanics. I did want to note that the game's bar for "prosperous and healthy" seems quite low at present; dwarves are overly eager to pack up and leave places where they presumably have lived for a while. Perhaps Scenarios will address this in some way like giving migrants a potential check: do I really want to leave this place where I have friends, family, an abode, a job, etc, to take my chances on an expedition that left just last year and potentially hasn't really gotten anything up and running yet?

Housing might be an important factor. The game already understands "this fort contains 20 bedrooms" based on how many bedrooms have been designated. If those 20 bedrooms are already full, the 20 migrants/conscripts/whoknowswhat have no place to live. If #dwarves>#bedrooms, then maybe word should get out that my fort has a housing shortage. And if #dwarves<#bedrooms, word spreads that my fort has lots of space available, and dwarves come in droves. (And speaking to the liaison, you could send out word intentionally to this effect?)

Or maybe you have a pool of potential migrants come to the fort and they hang around for a while, but if you don't make space for them within the season, they leave to find somewhere else to live that can accommodate them. Or potentially they will only decide to stay at the fort if it meets certain criteria, like it has a hospital, or a certain type of workshop. That would really give incentive to build certain things to convince high-value migrants to stay! Geez, the possibilities... and knowing Toady, it will all come to pass in one form or another.

Right now, migrants deciding that my fort is "prosperous" usually reflects the fact I have dug a giant moat around my map (demolishing 10+ Z-levels of rock), crafted a few barrels of masterpiece meals and traded them for lots of picks and raw glass, and had an artifact made. The dwarves who are arriving in droves have no concept of what they're walking into. They come, there are no bedrooms, there is no hospital, but for some reason they want to live here, en masse, abandoning their previous lives to be surrounded by piles and piles and piles of mined rocks.

... Hm, I guess I have basically created dorf heaven.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 07:17:26 pm by Emiteal »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2182 on: July 28, 2017, 02:55:00 am »

Suggestions about how to implement starting scenario mechanics are probably better placed in the suggestions sub forum, as suggestions in this thread are frowned upon. Starting scenario may be due in 5 years or so (if they appear directly after 3 myth&magic arcs [the actual number is not known]), so it's way out of the scope typically looked at in this thread.
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2183 on: July 28, 2017, 03:10:19 am »

Release is coming !
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2184 on: July 28, 2017, 03:38:38 am »

Release is coming !
20 nuggets at 1-2 days = 40 days unless anything goes wrong...? And you know that last nugget will take a couple of weeks by itself. :)
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2185 on: July 28, 2017, 04:53:07 am »

Well, AT LEAST this an estimation. A few months ago i hoped to have the release in september 2017 (while random dragon in is usual optimism said 2018). Now this is getting more precise, probably at the end of september...(if you think about unknown bugs).
The fact that i am enthousiasm is because i'm eager to see the NEXT version to be developped.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2186 on: July 28, 2017, 05:11:06 am »

Well, AT LEAST this an estimation. A few months ago i hoped to have the release in september 2017 (while random dragon in is usual optimism said 2018). Now this is getting more precise, probably at the end of september...(if you think about unknown bugs).
The fact that i am enthousiasm is because i'm eager to see the NEXT version to be developped.
Even after the release there's 6 months of mini-updates and bug fixes to get through first before the mythgen update starts. Still, pretty excited here too.
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2187 on: July 28, 2017, 05:17:30 am »

I know. But, as we both said, 6 months is better than "unknown" (which always means > to 6 months).
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Emiteal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2188 on: July 28, 2017, 11:51:03 am »

Suggestions about how to implement starting scenario mechanics are probably better placed in the suggestions sub forum, as suggestions in this thread are frowned upon. Starting scenario may be due in 5 years or so (if they appear directly after 3 myth&magic arcs [the actual number is not known]), so it's way out of the scope typically looked at in this thread.

A couple of people just went on a short speculation tangent about Scenarios (not starting scenario mechanics, the future development cycle) after I asked a question about the release schedule! My apologies for my enthusiasm. Calm down, dear noble, I will avoid exporting chairs as you demand, so you may now stop derailing the topic with policing about a conversation that already ended and we can return to discussing what's about to come next.

... I tried to come up with a question about the next release, but I got bupkis. Back to my fort now!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 11:54:28 am by Emiteal »
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2189 on: July 28, 2017, 12:08:07 pm »

Well, AT LEAST this an estimation. A few months ago i hoped to have the release in september 2017 (while random dragon in is usual optimism said 2018). Now this is getting more precise, probably at the end of september...(if you think about unknown bugs).
The fact that i am enthousiasm is because i'm eager to see the NEXT version to be developped.

Then again, I was joking when I said DF2018. :V
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