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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 706447 times)

ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2370 on: September 02, 2017, 04:03:47 am »

I agree with what Mechanoid said regarding the matter. Plenty of fantasy games already have these sorts of themes anyway, I don't see how it'd be different in this case.
I'm normally the sort of person who thinks if someone gets offended its on them (in this case I'd find it especially ridiculous since the worlds are randomly generated - there'd be as much of a chance of a pale-skinned human civ enslaving other humans who are darker as that of the opposite happening), but if Toady wants a more "diplomatic" solution then it could always be simplified to mere "racial" prejudice - not as in, skin colour differences between members of the same race that are only from different civs, but rather i.e humans disliking goblins due to worldgen wars or other conflicts, or dwarves disliking humans due to their own conflicts, etc. etc.

That said its up to Toady if he wants to make it more realistic with potentials for darker green goblins disliking those of a lighter green complexion from another civ and infighting or keep it on a more simple level.

I'd say from a gameplay standpoint it opens up more interesting possibilities for certain skills to be more useful in adv mode, i.e lying, conversationalism, speaking, etc. - also would make the tolerance personality trait actually have some use (if it does already then I haven't seen much of an effect).

Say you're a goblin who's a legendary speaker and you try to remain friendly with a human civ thats at war with your own (in which case of course the humies most likely wouldn't like gobbos around in their towns). If you'd want to get normal prices from taverns or speak to some important people you probably would need high conversation skills.

Alternatively another solution that could be added is via "glamour" type spells that make you look like a member of that civ - either through learning it yourself somehow or finding a merchant who'd use it on you for a price.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 04:12:51 am by ZM5 »
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Colev0

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2371 on: September 02, 2017, 08:50:29 am »

In worlds where gods/forces physically exist, would the death of a god eventually lead to rumors of their death, which itself would cause their followers to worship another god? Would priests working in temples devoted to that god change their profession upon learning of their god's death? Would temples dedicated to that god be destroyed, or would they be re-dedicated to another god?
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KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2372 on: September 02, 2017, 09:21:16 am »

In worlds where gods/forces physically exist, would the death of a god eventually lead to rumors of their death, which itself would cause their followers to worship another god? Would priests working in temples devoted to that god change their profession upon learning of their god's death? Would temples dedicated to that god be destroyed, or would they be re-dedicated to another god?

Addind to the above: Will creatures magically linked to the deities, possibly including priests, die/commit suicide?
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2373 on: September 02, 2017, 11:19:31 am »

I agree with what Mechanoid said regarding the matter. Plenty of fantasy games already have these sorts of themes anyway, I don't see how it'd be different in this case.
I'm normally the sort of person who thinks if someone gets offended its on them (in this case I'd find it especially ridiculous since the worlds are randomly generated - there'd be as much of a chance of a pale-skinned human civ enslaving other humans who are darker as that of the opposite happening), but if Toady wants a more "diplomatic" solution then it could always be simplified to mere "racial" prejudice - not as in, skin colour differences between members of the same race that are only from different civs, but rather i.e humans disliking goblins due to worldgen wars or other conflicts, or dwarves disliking humans due to their own conflicts, etc. etc.

It is really not a question of adding these things in or not, it is a question of how to add them.  It is far more realistic to have no prejudices at all, than it is to have them added randomly in order to fulfil some kind of inherent prejudice drive that the creature or entity has simply be virtue of it's being whatever it is.  In real-life racism in particular is based upon the symbolic value of appearance connected to a historical situation, in some cases defunct.  So the minimum requirement for 'realistic' racism in DF would be to track if a given trait (including simply being of a given race/species) is typical of a given group, either a foreign entity or a sub-group within your own entity; this is much needed from the perspective of detecting for instance spies.  So everyone uses the same information about the typical appearance of the members of various groups, if only to guess that Stranger X is probably an outsider but racists would immediately deduce that they *are* such and such a thing, in addition to what everybody else deduces.  Non-racists would replace their presumed information about an individual or group with the actual information when they learn it, racists on the other hand would cling to said inferred information and be resistant to evidence suggesting the contrary. 
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2374 on: September 02, 2017, 11:36:33 am »

You can just do it yourself using the raws from the wiki, you know.

I do. Every single version. Orrr Toady could fix it for good by doing it once. Why do you think it annoys me? :V

Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2375 on: September 02, 2017, 12:01:33 pm »

The Giant Desert Scorpion is dedd. Nevah to return. Quoth the file changes.txt:

Quote
will add replacement scorpion later

 :P
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n4m3l3ss

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2376 on: September 02, 2017, 01:02:37 pm »

I have a question about sending dwarves off-map in the next release.

Will I be able to get sieges from ANY distance? I mean, if I send out a squad to raid some goblin pits or a necro tower far away. Or steal some of their stuff. Piss em off and make them attack.

If yes, then hooray! I can just build my fort wherever I want to, and always be able to summon some !FUN!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 01:05:01 pm by n4m3l3ss »
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2377 on: September 02, 2017, 01:23:36 pm »

I agree with what Mechanoid said regarding the matter. Plenty of fantasy games already have these sorts of themes anyway, I don't see how it'd be different in this case.
I'm normally the sort of person who thinks if someone gets offended its on them (in this case I'd find it especially ridiculous since the worlds are randomly generated - there'd be as much of a chance of a pale-skinned human civ enslaving other humans who are darker as that of the opposite happening), but if Toady wants a more "diplomatic" solution then it could always be simplified to mere "racial" prejudice - not as in, skin colour differences between members of the same race that are only from different civs, but rather i.e humans disliking goblins due to worldgen wars or other conflicts, or dwarves disliking humans due to their own conflicts, etc. etc.

It is really not a question of adding these things in or not, it is a question of how to add them.  It is far more realistic to have no prejudices at all, than it is to have them added randomly in order to fulfil some kind of inherent prejudice drive that the creature or entity has simply be virtue of it's being whatever it is.  In real-life racism in particular is based upon the symbolic value of appearance connected to a historical situation, in some cases defunct.  So the minimum requirement for 'realistic' racism in DF would be to track if a given trait (including simply being of a given race/species) is typical of a given group, either a foreign entity or a sub-group within your own entity; this is much needed from the perspective of detecting for instance spies.  So everyone uses the same information about the typical appearance of the members of various groups, if only to guess that Stranger X is probably an outsider but racists would immediately deduce that they *are* such and such a thing, in addition to what everybody else deduces.  Non-racists would replace their presumed information about an individual or group with the actual information when they learn it, racists on the other hand would cling to said inferred information and be resistant to evidence suggesting the contrary.

I never really liked the fact that if I'm a goblin walking into a human town that has had issues with goblins in the past they are just as polite to me as anybody, there's a lot of interesting stories that could come from species based prejudice, eg dwarves disliking/distrusting goblins.
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ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2378 on: September 02, 2017, 01:24:54 pm »

I agree with what Mechanoid said regarding the matter. Plenty of fantasy games already have these sorts of themes anyway, I don't see how it'd be different in this case.
I'm normally the sort of person who thinks if someone gets offended its on them (in this case I'd find it especially ridiculous since the worlds are randomly generated - there'd be as much of a chance of a pale-skinned human civ enslaving other humans who are darker as that of the opposite happening), but if Toady wants a more "diplomatic" solution then it could always be simplified to mere "racial" prejudice - not as in, skin colour differences between members of the same race that are only from different civs, but rather i.e humans disliking goblins due to worldgen wars or other conflicts, or dwarves disliking humans due to their own conflicts, etc. etc.

It is really not a question of adding these things in or not, it is a question of how to add them.  It is far more realistic to have no prejudices at all, than it is to have them added randomly in order to fulfil some kind of inherent prejudice drive that the creature or entity has simply be virtue of it's being whatever it is.  In real-life racism in particular is based upon the symbolic value of appearance connected to a historical situation, in some cases defunct.  So the minimum requirement for 'realistic' racism in DF would be to track if a given trait (including simply being of a given race/species) is typical of a given group, either a foreign entity or a sub-group within your own entity; this is much needed from the perspective of detecting for instance spies.  So everyone uses the same information about the typical appearance of the members of various groups, if only to guess that Stranger X is probably an outsider but racists would immediately deduce that they *are* such and such a thing, in addition to what everybody else deduces.  Non-racists would replace their presumed information about an individual or group with the actual information when they learn it, racists on the other hand would cling to said inferred information and be resistant to evidence suggesting the contrary.
Culture would also factor into this, so I'd say it would actually be less realistic to have no prejudices at all - for example, lets say we have two groups - group A values martial prowess and doesn't particularly care about peace, leisure time or nature - whereas group B highly values knowledge, nature, peace and leisure time but doesn't particularly care about martial prowess. I highly doubt the groups wouldn't have prejudices about each other - with members of group A seeing the majority of group B as decadent, weak whelps, and group B seeing the majority of group A as violent, ignorant barbarians.
Even if they weren't engaged in outright war, I don't believe members of either group would treat members of the other fairly - higher prices for goods, etc. - unless they proved themselves in some way to their society.

Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2379 on: September 02, 2017, 04:24:49 pm »

The Giant Desert Scorpion is dedd. Nevah to return. Quoth the file changes.txt:

Quote
will add replacement scorpion later

 :P

The scorpion is dead. Long live the scorpion. ;w;

Urist McVoyager

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2380 on: September 02, 2017, 09:04:40 pm »

On the prejudice side of things . . . as long as there's no absolute trends, there isn't an issue. Don't tie prejudice just to species or color. Add in all kinds of prejudiced traits, both physical and mental. And give high speakers the ability to change peoples' minds about said prejudice. It's only when you make something highly likely to happen that it becomes a problem. Heck, give these prejudices a logical underpinning, even. I'm sure the original cases of racism back when we were all primitives stemmed from competition for resources. The modern stuff came from a lot of different sources, depending on where you are. The Southern style in the states was boosted by black slaves taking over jobs that free whites were paid to do beforehand. And then further amplified on purpose by the slave owners as a way to keep the slaves from getting freed earlier.

It's a lot of work, so I don't blame Toady for not getting into it. Just, if the systems come into place for it as a natural consequence of development, think about it?
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dragdeler

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2381 on: September 03, 2017, 03:15:38 am »

Would the secondary load areas work like fort or adventure mode, meaning: do you move inside a square or will the map load chunks around an object that moves?

KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2382 on: September 03, 2017, 03:28:18 am »

Would the secondary load areas work like fort or adventure mode, meaning: do you move inside a square or will the map load chunks around an object that moves?

What? Did I miss anything? Are you talking about expeditions? If so, you don't control them, they're AI controlled.
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dragdeler

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2383 on: September 03, 2017, 03:58:28 am »

Well in the first time it would only be for the interdimenional travel but it was mentioned that the framework could be really useful. CTRL+F the last reply for the word portal

Dantez

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2384 on: September 03, 2017, 04:39:00 am »

Since I am writing a book about dwarves right now, and music has a pretty big part in it, I had to ask:

Is there any possibility of clarifying the randomly generated musical instruments? So far if I want to build or buy some instruments, I have to go through a bit painful process of reading through what each instrument is and what it does. I mean, that is fun and kinda cool, but I would like it a lot if for example there was a (wind), or (string) tag in front of the random name. Would be much quicker and clearer in my opinion.
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