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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 749265 times)

Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2685 on: November 02, 2017, 06:46:29 pm »

-snip-
A world with absolutely no prejudices or expectations of any kind for different groups is not realistic in the slightest if you want to have differences in physical and psychological qualities between the genders of various races - in that case it'd be utopian, at best - it'd only be realistic for a race of gray blobs with no differences between any of their individual members.

The entire reason human history developed the way it did, with gender roles and so on, is because of early days of civilization pretty much requiring people to play to their biological strengths. For now, dwarves and other races do not have those differences at any significant level, for whatever reason - if Toady wants to keep the game to be realistic and add more depth to the histories of various civilizations, he is more than likely going to have to add them.

I don't see how this would be different if you want to have civs start from small tribes and eventually developing into large, prosperous nations - after periods of only sending fit young men to war, sooner or later of course traditions would be broken, it would be a dynamic worldgen change, perhaps even a result of player meddling. Thats already a way for the player to have some significant impact on the world and actually feel the change.

It is exactly why I think it would be neat to have this sort of thing in-game. It adds depths, it makes things like different titles for monarchs make sense, it adds nuance to the history of the world and the general stories being presented for each generated world.

you're taking "realistic" to mean "similar to reality" while goblincookie is taking it to mean "self-consistent"

As for what trans dwarves would add to the game (such a weird question, no one cared as much when kakapos and kiwis were added), a bunch of people who play the game are trans, a bunch of us have trans friends, and we'd like to dorf them and tell them how they got eaten by a skinless capybara fiend just like everyone else in our friend group (or is that just me? :P).  It really is a pity its a "political" topic - some would say having gay dwarves is political (and a couple decades ago having dwarves of color would have been political), but maybe one day things'll be different.  I'd really like to see procedural generation of genders in culture - it would be neat to see nb genders ala the Egyptians, Mayans, or the Maori.
I completely agree with Toady here - the game isn't quite ready for that sort of thing being implemented quite yet, although i'm hopeful once more procedural culture stuff is in.

Yeah, Toady's specific comments on pronoun usage appearing like a bug is exactly how it would be if he were just to slap on a thing that lets soul gender be different from body sex--pronouns are all over the place there, as I've seen when testing it myself by just sort of changing soul gender.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 06:48:38 pm by Putnam »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2686 on: November 02, 2017, 07:43:40 pm »

It does seem kinda like a rabbit hole that will have to be jumped down in some form along with the big magic update, as that will probably involve soul swapping and body changing shenanigans. At the least Toady will have to decide between using body pronouns and using soul pronouns once they start not necessarily matching due to magic.
With the third option of changing everything to use plural they, I suppose. :P
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Mala

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2687 on: November 03, 2017, 04:17:52 am »

Are adventurers (specifically retired ones) being asexual and uninterested in marriage intentional or a bug?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 05:23:02 am by Japa »
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2688 on: November 03, 2017, 05:05:55 am »

Are adventurers being asexual and uninterested in marriage intentional or a bug?
Probably neither. ToadyOne has spoken that the game can't infere the intent of the player actions.  Which isnt a fault to ToadyOne, computers cant infere intent. If you cant get down down, with whomever you want, and then get the marries then it probably because that ability doesn't exist for adventurers yet.
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Mala

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2689 on: November 03, 2017, 05:23:47 am »

I modified my post to clarify. I'm specifically referring to when you retire an adventurer in a player fortress, they will never marry or get children.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2690 on: November 03, 2017, 05:35:18 am »

I modified my post to clarify. I'm specifically referring to when you retire an adventurer in a player fortress, they will never marry or get children.
"Get married, have children, play as decendents"
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2691 on: November 03, 2017, 07:39:26 am »

Are adventurers (specifically retired ones) being asexual and uninterested in marriage intentional or a bug?

It's an intentional placeholder.

Quote
Oddly enough, we thought retired adventurers would start forming relationships with 0.40.01+, so we wanted to have a better spectrum available, but then we didn't get around to the gen/pre-retirement specification menu, so all adventurers are still tagged with the special "undetermined" flag...
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2692 on: November 03, 2017, 08:52:19 am »

And rather belatedly, thanks for the answers.

Quote from: Random_Dragon
Are these new display rack items going to be available to construct and place in adventure mode? If so, is it handled via hardcoded additions to the code, or will some raw handling of tool-based furniture for adventure mode be implemented? If the latter, I can see that being potentially useful for modding.

A wooden pedestal is available as a reaction in the raws, and adv site blueprints allow display furniture now, but there isn't any kind of larger framework.

It is said, but not unexpected.

I can't recall if this has been asked, but what about weapon racks and armor stands? These would be perfectly logical choices as display furniture, and I've kinda joked about the possibility that you might completely forget to utilize them for display.

It's...mostly a joke because it references another game I used to contribute to, where "failing to utilize existing features properly when adding a new feature" is a bit of a problem among the other contributors and developers. But now I'm curious.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2693 on: November 03, 2017, 01:23:29 pm »

A world with absolutely no prejudices or expectations of any kind for different groups is not realistic in the slightest if you want to have differences in physical and psychological qualities between the genders of various races - in that case it'd be utopian, at best - it'd only be realistic for a race of gray blobs with no differences between any of their individual members.

The entire reason human history developed the way it did, with gender roles and so on, is because of early days of civilization pretty much requiring people to play to their biological strengths. For now, dwarves and other races do not have those differences at any significant level, for whatever reason - if Toady wants to keep the game to be realistic and add more depth to the histories of various civilizations, he is more than likely going to have to add them.

I don't see how this would be different if you want to have civs start from small tribes and eventually developing into large, prosperous nations - after periods of only sending fit young men to war, sooner or later of course traditions would be broken, it would be a dynamic worldgen change, perhaps even a result of player meddling. Thats already a way for the player to have some significant impact on the world and actually feel the change.

It is exactly why I think it would be neat to have this sort of thing in-game. It adds depths, it makes things like different titles for monarchs make sense, it adds nuance to the history of the world and the general stories being presented for each generated world.

You appear to be operating according to a rather rationalistic and deterministic view of history.  In that view of history it makes no sense to promote the realism of gender prejudices because they do not exist without the differences in abilities/inclination which are taken to be the basis upon which we deterministically end up with the social order.  So tell me why we are adding in the inherent differences in the first place?

I on the other hand operate on the basis that most everything is BS built on previous BS and hence the ultimate origins of societal institutions is a combination of stupidity, short-sightedness and sheer malice.  For an example, if we were to add gender differences in abilities, none of that would definately result in any differences in the present society because likely nobody is going to be keeping tabs on how productive dwarf X as opposed to dwarf Y.  Without this previous institution being the case (aka individual merit) then the supposed inevitable consequences of individual differences in ability do not materialize. 

I'd just like to point out that we already have a topic for discussing the possibilities of in-game prejudices, so it'd probably be better to move this discussion over there.

We do? Where?

you're taking "realistic" to mean "similar to reality" while goblincookie is taking it to mean "self-consistent"

Am I?  The definition of realistic is.

Quote from: google
representing things in a way that is accurate and true to life.

Yet there is no single 'real life' to start with.  Which means the only sense to which realism can exist is that things operate as they would in real-life were a certain set of facts the same.  Realistic means if X were the case in real-life then Y would follow, it simply does not mean "all the facts are in accord to real-life", because that would automatically exclude all fiction from realism.
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Runaway_char

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2694 on: November 03, 2017, 01:32:02 pm »

We could also argue about this underlying assumption that trans people exist because of gender roles, but I think we've derailed long enough without kicking that hornet's nest.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2695 on: November 03, 2017, 01:38:29 pm »

A wooden pedestal is available as a reaction in the raws, and adv site blueprints allow display furniture now, but there isn't any kind of larger framework.

It is said, but not unexpected.

I can't recall if this has been asked, but what about weapon racks and armor stands? These would be perfectly logical choices as display furniture, and I've kinda joked about the possibility that you might completely forget to utilize them for display.

It's...mostly a joke because it references another game I used to contribute to, where "failing to utilize existing features properly when adding a new feature" is a bit of a problem among the other contributors and developers. But now I'm curious.


I recently broached the idea here, but yeah raising a glass to the future notion of having armor & weapon racks being useful again given the opportunity to store other things as a greater incorporation of new display/storage furniture.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 01:41:39 pm by FantasticDorf »
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red_kangaroo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2696 on: November 03, 2017, 04:47:29 pm »

Can we expect to see underwater sites similar to those of dwarves, goblins etc.? I'm thinking something like coral castles of mermaids.

I remember reading somewhere (in one of the Threetoe stories?) about goblins serving demons in the Circus. Will there one day be demon sites in Hell, along with goblin populations and hell beasts? Perhaps even armed and armored demon leaders?

Speaking of demons, will demons be able to use magic related to their spheres? I find it odd how demons can grant necromancy slabs but cannot use the magic themselves.

Thanks!
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Urlance Woolsbane

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2697 on: November 03, 2017, 05:11:27 pm »

Can we expect to see underwater sites similar to those of dwarves, goblins etc.? I'm thinking something like coral castles of mermaids.
FWIW, sea-trolls, ala Grendel's mother in Beowulf, were on the table at one point. A sea-cave is obviously a lot simpler than a merpalace, but it suggest that the requisite mechanics will someday exist.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2698 on: November 03, 2017, 05:28:10 pm »

Can we expect to see underwater sites similar to those of dwarves, goblins etc.? I'm thinking something like coral castles of mermaids.

I remember reading somewhere (in one of the Threetoe stories?) about goblins serving demons in the Circus. Will there one day be demon sites in Hell, along with goblin populations and hell beasts? Perhaps even armed and armored demon leaders?

Speaking of demons, will demons be able to use magic related to their spheres? I find it odd how demons can grant necromancy slabs but cannot use the magic themselves.

Thanks!

Can we expect to see underwater sites similar to those of dwarves, goblins etc.? I'm thinking something like coral castles of mermaids.
With the amount of bugs & lag caused by water and displacement of water (casting fire spells underwater or suddenly deleting water) i would think unlikely but only Toady knows a definite answer to this, theres not much mention otherwise im aware of.

I remember reading somewhere (in one of the Threetoe stories?) about goblins serving demons in the Circus. Will there one day be demon sites in Hell, along with goblin populations and hell beasts? Perhaps even armed and armored demon leaders?

There already are "portals" (its actually just a staircase penetrating the HFS layer directly) inside the bottom of goblin towers, demon leaders (each dark fortress site starts with a demon leader still, they dont fight as much as they used to in worldgen) used to often lead armies from the front creating quite unbalanced encounters in world generation & fortress sieges. I don't know exactly but with portals & planes of existance organising the HFS & whatever else may be considered magical, demons might have more roles than to simply murder things, overseeing that beings sent to hell recieve just punishment for example once the world myth & magic update are out to explain what they do and why they are there in this world.

If you have any suggestions for monsters/wildlife to populate hell, or other roles demons/goblins could be doing on that layer feel free to drop a suggestion in the suggestions subforum. Threetoe has already laid down sort of the foundations for goblins & trolls originating from 'the underworld', in the story of cado's journey. Some modders already do mod creatures to inhabit the hell layer but they tend not to live terribly long because of how strong demons can be also prone to attacking the wildlife.

Speaking of demons, will demons be able to use magic related to their spheres? I find it odd how demons can grant necromancy slabs but cannot use the magic themselves.

I would think that demons are supernatural creatures in themselves and [SUPERNATURAL] already lends itself to knowing secrets (and presumably magic when its implemented) within its spheres, Toady has already confirmed a while back (link to post pending) that goblins will use their own negative spheres of magic like death & chaos because theirs varies compared to other races because they have warped & twisted civilisation values that make evil concepts (and in mod testing, more evil subject religions) more common.

FWIW, sea-trolls, ala Grendel's mother in Beowulf, were on the table at one point. A sea-cave is obviously a lot simpler than a merpalace, but it suggest that the requisite mechanics will someday exist.

Well with the way Toady seems to be adapting the new kobold sites inside caves to automatically update relevant artitecture that might be a very solid assumption (automatically updating egg laying lairs depending on whether the occupants lay eggs or not) but again it could be open to bugs & lag so we'll see.
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ShinyandKittens

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2699 on: November 03, 2017, 11:35:15 pm »

Thanks for the answer to my earlier question! Iíve been looking into all sorts of tokens, and will there be new tokens to define if something needs magic? Such as a wizard acquiring his power or you being blessed by a goddess, etc.

Also, what about being blessed by gods/goddesses? Maybe through praying or through faithful support, they give you powers to defend his/her name? (Sorry I didnít put this on the suggestion page)
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