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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 730578 times)

KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3105 on: February 18, 2018, 04:33:59 am »

You can't eat dead animal people, even wild ones.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3106 on: February 18, 2018, 04:43:21 am »

You can't eat dead animal people, even wild ones.
Yes. Ethics.
(Although even playing someone with looser ethics (elf), a bug assumes that you have anti-cannibalism ethics right now).

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Could dwarves exploit the clause of "but they're not dwarves"?
Now there's a thought. "We abhor slavery in all forms. Except that of inferior races to our own..."
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 05:54:32 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3107 on: February 19, 2018, 06:31:03 pm »

Pitchblende exists as a mineable ore. Through supernatural means, would dwarves be able to refine uranium and construct a rudimentary nuclear weapon? Could we nuke elfkind?
Even once you have the material, getting a nuke to detonate is still an extremely precise matter. Do it wrong, and you just contaminate a small area with radioactive debris. There's no way you're going to stumble upon making a nuke without a serious understanding of nuclear physics. It's well after the tech cutoff.

If you have the supernatural means, you might as well just skip the uranium and nuke them with an artifact. The Holy Hand Nuke of Uristioch.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 06:41:45 pm by Bumber »
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iceball3

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3108 on: February 19, 2018, 06:49:22 pm »

Another thing about forced labor that should be considered looking forward is how there is a variety of different systems that held different amounts of sway, in real life, and historically the standing on slavery has shifted for reasons anywhere between ethical development to simply the generation of capital and labor to plantation owners or other slave using entities. For instance, it can be argued that serfdom, under the feudal system is considered slavery, and the dwarves in our game here basically operate under the feudal system, where the dwarves state that torture is unthinkable, yet deliver mandate violation punishments in the form of hammerblows and beatings, which are kind of a form of torture...

The other slave systems worth considering for ethics specificity would be the likes of indentured servitude and chattel slavery. And it is worth noting that humans have historical precedence for all of them.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3109 on: February 19, 2018, 07:01:01 pm »

Another thing about forced labor that should be considered looking forward is how there is a variety of different systems that held different amounts of sway, in real life, and historically the standing on slavery has shifted for reasons anywhere between ethical development to simply the generation of capital and labor to plantation owners or other slave using entities. For instance, it can be argued that serfdom, under the feudal system is considered slavery, and the dwarves in our game here basically operate under the feudal system, where the dwarves state that torture is unthinkable, yet deliver mandate violation punishments in the form of hammerblows and beatings, which are kind of a form of torture...

The other slave systems worth considering for ethics specificity would be the likes of indentured servitude and chattel slavery. And it is worth noting that humans have historical precedence for all of them.
"Torture for fun", "Torture as example" and "torture for information" are the (current) three torture ethics. "Torture for purification of the soul" isn't included (Although as a punishment, doubtless it looks like "torture as example" to outsiders).
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iceball3

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3110 on: February 20, 2018, 07:21:06 am »

Another thing about forced labor that should be considered looking forward is how there is a variety of different systems that held different amounts of sway, in real life, and historically the standing on slavery has shifted for reasons anywhere between ethical development to simply the generation of capital and labor to plantation owners or other slave using entities. For instance, it can be argued that serfdom, under the feudal system is considered slavery, and the dwarves in our game here basically operate under the feudal system, where the dwarves state that torture is unthinkable, yet deliver mandate violation punishments in the form of hammerblows and beatings, which are kind of a form of torture...

The other slave systems worth considering for ethics specificity would be the likes of indentured servitude and chattel slavery. And it is worth noting that humans have historical precedence for all of them.
"Torture for fun", "Torture as example" and "torture for information" are the (current) three torture ethics. "Torture for purification of the soul" isn't included (Although as a punishment, doubtless it looks like "torture as example" to outsiders).
Torture for purification of the soul basically just sounds like it's for fun and example, really. Considering the ones giving the beatings get good thoughts for it, and soul purification is an exceptionally strange response to failing to produce tables.
Let's not forget that dwarven official capital punishment is "bludgeon the victim with a hammer until they die (or somehow survive 99 hammerstrikes), which is... execution by torture.

Egan_BW

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3111 on: February 20, 2018, 11:41:01 am »

And that's what they do to people who practice slavery, so I highly advise that you don't let your dwarves hear your muttering about powering things by elf slaves.
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Hugo_The_Dwarf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3112 on: February 21, 2018, 04:14:29 pm »

  • When will Interactions start to respect USAGE_HINTs (and lack of) again much like pre-42.xx? { regarding tracked issue http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9417 })
  • Will there ever be additional syndrome effects like combustion/ignite? Say eating a certain plant will cause the consumer to combust into flames.
  • Will being on fire have "degrees" of burning and more targeted burning (stepping through fire may only light someones legs on fire, and progress from there unless put out or stop drop and roll)
  • Will it be possible to raid sites and have not only raze and loot, but kidnap(baby snatch) as well (be it for goblin-like action, or for ransom, or both). Or even take prisoners? Maybe even apply the FORCED_ADMINISTRATION position on a site, and demand goods from them (we own you, send wagons to this fortress of cat leather and silver bars)
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3113 on: February 21, 2018, 05:32:20 pm »

  • When will Interactions start to respect USAGE_HINTs (and lack of) again much like pre-42.xx? { regarding tracked issue http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9417 })
  • Will there ever be additional syndrome effects like combustion/ignite? Say eating a certain plant will cause the consumer to combust into flames.
  • Will being on fire have "degrees" of burning and more targeted burning (stepping through fire may only light someones legs on fire, and progress from there unless put out or stop drop and roll)
  • Will it be possible to raid sites and have not only raze and loot, but kidnap(baby snatch) as well (be it for goblin-like action, or for ransom, or both). Or even take prisoners? Maybe even apply the FORCED_ADMINISTRATION position on a site, and demand goods from them (we own you, send wagons to this fortress of cat leather and silver bars)
Tribute system is in latest devblog.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3114 on: February 21, 2018, 05:42:37 pm »


    http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9417 })[/color][/li][/list]
    2. Will there ever be additional syndrome effects like combustion/ignite? Say eating a certain plant will cause the consumer to combust into flames.[/li][/list]
    [/color]
    [/list]
    This has the problem of materiel interactions. Which is that you need at least x^x of possible interactions. Where x is the number of all materiels. The Brothers Tarns dont seem to particularly like adding in one off systems. They prefer to have a generalized system to handle large number of cases. Like for instance, we didnt have milkable cows for a very long time, until we got a system that covers fireballs, and venoms ect.

    Do second and third degree burns not happen in the game organically? The bodily materiels have specific heats, and I think they thermal conductivity. They probably arent being lable as such.
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    Hugo_The_Dwarf

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    Re: Future of the Fortress
    « Reply #3115 on: February 21, 2018, 06:29:25 pm »


        http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9417 })[/color][/li][/list]
        2. Will there ever be additional syndrome effects like combustion/ignite? Say eating a certain plant will cause the consumer to combust into flames.[/li][/list]
        [/color]
        [/list]
        This has the problem of materiel interactions. Which is that you need at least x^x of possible interactions. Where x is the number of all materiels. The Brothers Tarns dont seem to particularly like adding in one off systems. They prefer to have a generalized system to handle large number of cases. Like for instance, we didnt have milkable cows for a very long time, until we got a system that covers fireballs, and venoms ect.

        Do second and third degree burns not happen in the game organically? The bodily materiels have specific heats, and I think they thermal conductivity. They probably arent being lable as such.

        I take it you're addressing Point 3. with your burns question?

        Actual burn/heat/melt damage does apply over time, but once something is on fire the whole creature is on fire. Burning everything at once, and the fire is at max burning potential. I guess with fire it's normally at max potential, but in some cases like hot coals are not a fire yet, but if left on dry leaves and a nice breeze could become a fire, which won't be huge until it spreads to more fuel.

        What I'm implying is that the fire could be 30% of the creatures hand, and grow from there, spreading to the next part (attached parts) and increasing in percentage there. So a dwarf running and getting hit with a fire jet may only have 50% of the upper and lower body on fire (the back) and if the AI doesn't find water or get somewhere safe (away from the hostile) to so a stop drop and roll maneuver (or is too scared, personality and willpower) those 50% could increase and the rest of the dwarf will be engulfed in flames until neatly roasted to a crisp.

        But as it is now, it's a full creature inferno right away.


        However if the ignite/fire suggestion doesn't fit at least a MELT TISSUE option would be good (besides extreme necrosis) to emulate acid
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        FantasticDorf

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        Re: Future of the Fortress
        « Reply #3116 on: February 21, 2018, 06:31:25 pm »

        > Will it be possible to raid sites and have not only raze and loot, but kidnap(baby snatch) as well (be it for goblin-like action, or for ransom, or both). Or even take prisoners? Maybe even apply the FORCED_ADMINISTRATION position on a site, and demand goods from them (we own you, send wagons to this fortress of cat leather and silver bars)
        Tribute system is in latest devblog.

        It wasn't a finalised statement, but the possibility of Toady adding tribute is on the table to be more precise. Toady has also talked about installing forced administrations in previous FotF entries but we can only really assume that's not for another few releases and some cleanup to ensure the raid & reclaimation quests are smooth.

        Quote from: ToadyOne
        We're also considering throwing in an ongoing tribute option if the winds are favorable.

        Though it is not quite a arc so to speak (like law arc) outside of sharing a resemblence of the theme will greater interactions of local sites raiding, fighting and demand tribute eventually lead to expanded connections of relationships on how those are imposed (via forced administration governments & puppet rulers) or freed from that imposement through rebellion and wars.

        For instance a dwarven civ you may be playing at one given point in time may have been conquered previously by goblins in a vunerable weak point in their history and as such are bound into a peace deal agreement on threat of reprecussions & violence if they do not extract tribute from them.
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        LordBaal

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        Re: Future of the Fortress
        « Reply #3117 on: February 22, 2018, 07:17:03 am »

        Quote from: ToadyOne link=http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/
        On my first attack on a human village, the dwarves returned with a yak, a goose, and an alpaca, as well as a nicely decorated yak waterskin... and somebody's oaken crutch.

        I'm gonna need that guy's leg!
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        Shonai_Dweller

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        Re: Future of the Fortress
        « Reply #3118 on: February 22, 2018, 06:02:33 pm »

        Are there any technical updates or replacement systems that you really want to implement that you've held back on so far in order to maintain save compatibility? I know how that's an important consideration, but perhaps Mythgen is a natural time to "break" the game again? (In the name of progress, of course).
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        KittyTac

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        Re: Future of the Fortress
        « Reply #3119 on: February 22, 2018, 09:12:31 pm »

        Obviously, Mythgen won't be save-compatible.
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