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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 787266 times)

Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #450 on: August 18, 2016, 09:15:45 pm »

The tracker is also higher profile now, I didn't know about it for a while, I was pointed to it, I've pointed others to it, you'd expect a lot of things that are hard to find the proper duplicate of showing up and needing to be resolved, you've got weird edge case bugs that count but aren't really important (teleporting bloodsplosions) vying for attention with serious stuff (campsite animal population explosions) mixed in with amusing stuff (zombie merchants) and more people adding stuff with each new release.
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Engraved here is a rendition of an image of the Dwarf Fortress learning curve. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It depicts an obsidian overhang which menaces with spikes of obsidian and tears. Carved on the overhang is an image of Toady One and the players. The players are curled up in a fetal position. Toady One is laughing. The players are burning.
The VectorCurses+1 tileset strikes the square set and the severed part sails off in an arc!

vlademir1

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #451 on: August 18, 2016, 10:32:14 pm »

Do display cases and pedestals have a quality value like other furniture?  If so, is there any intent to, whether within the current new feature implementation or at some indistinct future point, have dwarf thoughts about incongruous displays (such as the equivalent of displaying a Faberge egg on some random poorly constructed Ikea shelf)?


I can't speak for anyone else, but on the whole "more bugfixes" discussion I personally see no problem with the current level of bugs so long as game breaking bugs don't occur in more than 1% of games.  This game has been effectively in alpha development (even if Toady himself isn't thinking in or using those terms) since 2010 with the 0.31 releases, which was preceded by effectively a public pre-alpha phase that ended with the 0.28 line in 2008 and a private pre-alpha that ended with the 0.21 line's release in 2006.  Until we see a 1.00 line, demarking the start of a beta phase with all features implemented, it is actually counterproductive to push out more bugfixes than is required to maintain feedback levels on new features as they are implemented just as it's counterproductive to push out any real polish on existing systems and content until then (for the record I personally expect to see that in around 2030 or so at the current rate).
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #452 on: August 19, 2016, 02:36:20 am »

:
I can't speak for anyone else, but on the whole "more bugfixes" discussion I personally see no problem with the current level of bugs so long as game breaking bugs don't occur in more than 1% of games.  This game has been effectively in alpha development (even if Toady himself isn't thinking in or using those terms) since 2010 with the 0.31 releases, which was preceded by effectively a public pre-alpha phase that ended with the 0.28 line in 2008 and a private pre-alpha that ended with the 0.21 line's release in 2006.  Until we see a 1.00 line, demarking the start of a beta phase with all features implemented, it is actually counterproductive to push out more bugfixes than is required to maintain feedback levels on new features as they are implemented just as it's counterproductive to push out any real polish on existing systems and content until then (for the record I personally expect to see that in around 2030 or so at the current rate).

If 1.0 was due to be out 2018 at the latest I'd agree with the sentiment of just fixing the very worst bugs before that. Given the extremely long development time of DF, as well as the "business model" of its development requiring sufficient continuous interest in it before its "done", I'd suggest there's a need for a somewhat harsher attitude towards bugs. Everyone have their own idea of where the balance ought to be though: there's no "correct" answer.
I also think the "alpha", "beta", "early access" analogies are somewhat misleading. DF is in continuous development, true, but so are a large number of commercial programs. Beta/early access phases can "afford" to contain serious bugs and gross imbalances because they're going to be fixed "soon", but you can't replace "soon" with "in a couple of decades" without consequences. Thus, I believe DF needs to be readily playable at all times, while still recognizing there will be hordes of bugs, some of them rather annoying, that will be around for years before they're due for fixing. From what I've seen during my relatively short time with DF (about 2 years), Toady has made a fairly good job of keeping a reasonable balance, but a minor correction for the latest stretch would be welcome.

I don't care too much about bug tracker statistics, since 100 typos can easily be lived with, but one severe bug can ruin the whole party, and a number of middling ones make you decide to stop butting your head against them them and shift your attention elsewhere.
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Daniel the Finlander

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #453 on: August 19, 2016, 11:02:53 am »

Will there be a priest occupation in dwarf mode?
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #454 on: August 20, 2016, 02:22:57 am »

Quote
You'll be able to display any non-large object you like, and there'll be new thoughts for displayed items similar to the admiration of architecture.

Wanna bet playing a small corpse on a pedestal in a reanimation biome will cause shenanigans?

In any case, as much as I'm hoping Toady will take a break from the flurry of new features for a bit after this, I am admittedly excited to see this.
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On DF Wiki · On DFFD

"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.

thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #455 on: August 20, 2016, 03:33:19 am »

Quote
You'll be able to display any non-large object you like, and there'll be new thoughts for displayed items similar to the admiration of architecture.

Wanna bet playing a small corpse on a pedestal in a reanimation biome will cause shenanigans?

In any case, as much as I'm hoping Toady will take a break from the flurry of new features for a bit after this, I am admittedly excited to see this.


If you place a corpse on a pedestal outside in a reanimation biome the expected outcome is that the corpse will be reanimated.

Stop with these passive agressive attacks. All evidences suggest that Toady is doing better than ever (the last version is very stable despite the recent x64 version and donations are on the high) and that you are wrong. Drop the issue.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #456 on: August 20, 2016, 10:12:47 am »

For fuck's sake, that was just an admission that, despite my concerns and snarking, I'm still glad to see it.
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On DF Wiki · On DFFD

"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.

Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #457 on: August 20, 2016, 06:05:42 pm »

Quote
Stop with these passive agressive attacks.
I don't think he is only speaking of this last sentence. There are plenty in the last pages, from you.

And I agree with thvaz, in general, the last version is more stable than the previous ones.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #458 on: August 20, 2016, 06:47:27 pm »

So, while everyone is getting understandably excited about displaying the corpses of their victims, Dwarven ethics (make_trophy_sapient) won't actually let this happen without modding, right?
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Arthropleura

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #459 on: August 21, 2016, 12:00:53 am »

So, while everyone is getting understandably excited about displaying the corpses of their victims, Dwarven ethics (make_trophy_sapient) won't actually let this happen without modding, right?

According to the wiki, it's [ABUSE_BODIES] that controls whether or not a civ will do this. Dwarves lack this tag so they don't engage in this sort of behavior. The [MAKE_TROPHY_SAPIENT] ethic looks like it controls things like bone jewelry.
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We are currently three turns in, and the main hall is coated in blood, intestines and random corpses. There's a huge pile of 3000 items made of human body parts in a corner and remaining members of the staff of the museum are, as I type this, being slowly choked to death by one of our adventurers.

ProjectXMark1

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #460 on: August 21, 2016, 08:55:42 am »

Seeing as fortress starting scenarios are coming a couple of releases down the line, will there be generalisation of this, so that, for example, a legendary swordsman could set up hidden mountain training grounds?

Also, do you ever intend on implementing different game speeds to fortress/adventure mode?
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #461 on: August 21, 2016, 10:44:16 am »

Which kind of scenarios do you have in mind for starters (I'm guessing not all of them will be in right away)? Will they be procedurally created too right? Or it is a surprise?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #462 on: August 21, 2016, 05:39:33 pm »

Which kind of scenarios do you have in mind for starters (I'm guessing not all of them will be in right away)? Will they be procedurally created too right? Or it is a surprise?
According to the not secret development notes, these for a start:
Quote
Various possiblities that guide or govern fortress activity: frontier settlement, religious site, prison colony, mining company, military citadel, roadside inn, secondary/future palace of the monarch
Toady also mentioned a while back that they had an underground focussed start planned out.
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Nopenope

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #463 on: August 22, 2016, 12:33:10 am »

1. Will dwarven adventurers be occasionnally taken by strange moods?
2. How do you envision invasions for the sake of an artifact to play out in Fortress mode? Will there be a goblin spokesperson of some kind saying "We must have X" or will it be psychically understood by all dwarves that these specific invaders want specific artifact X? Should the player yield, how do you envision the delivery of the artifact? Will there be something like a diplomacy screen, a specific job "deliver artifact to invaders" or just a dump job coupled with goblins pathfinding to your artifact and wordlessly taking it away?
3. Will megabeasts, night creatures, bandits and non-goblin civs be able to demand an artifact as well? In the latter case, will there be diplomatic consequences involved?
4. Will single adventurers target your fortress for artifacts, showing up as visitors, hostiles or otherwise?
5. Assuming artifacts get stolen by animals like keas, do they get tracked by the game so that they could end up in another site?
6. Will the item type of the artifact bear any relevance to the invaders, in other words will they be as likely to demand a platinum war hammer as an elf bone earring, assuming both were crafted in your fortress?
7. Do necro books and named weapons in Fortress mode count as artifacts in that system, or will they eventually fall off the artifact list?
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #464 on: August 22, 2016, 06:39:16 am »

Which kind of scenarios do you have in mind for starters (I'm guessing not all of them will be in right away)? Will they be procedurally created too right? Or it is a surprise?
According to the not secret development notes, these for a start:
Quote
Various possiblities that guide or govern fortress activity: frontier settlement, religious site, prison colony, mining company, military citadel, roadside inn, secondary/future palace of the monarch
Toady also mentioned a while back that they had an underground focussed start planned out.
I know he mentioned that a while ago. What I ask if is all of them will be right away in the first release? Oh, I just thought on another question. Will starting scenarios have some kind of limits according to the context. IE a roadside inn will have a low pop cap and relative few military immigrants? Will prisons and military forts have a more official, orderly immigration? Will prison colonies have prisoners arriving in cages on wagons or beast of burden or at least escorted by military/police dwarves?
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!
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