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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 120589 times)

Sizik

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #990 on: November 30, 2016, 07:43:56 pm »

"Player-lord" being hyphenated, I think, implies a player who is also a lord (both parts being nouns, rather than one being a noun used as an adjective).
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #991 on: November 30, 2016, 10:14:32 pm »

"Player-lord" being hyphenated, I think, implies a player who is also a lord (both parts being nouns, rather than one being a noun used as an adjective).

Yes, this is what I meant.
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Rubik

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #992 on: December 01, 2016, 02:46:10 am »

As English is not my mother tongue, this has been a little hard to follow on
Why would you go to another game Dirst? Dont you already have a lord in the game as it is now? Armok doesnt forgive
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #993 on: December 01, 2016, 03:05:07 pm »

Thanks to Max^TM, Putnam, TheBiggerFish, Rubik, Inarius, PatrikLundell, DG, Shonai_Dweller, FantasticDorf, Quietust, Dirst, Rockphed and anybody I missed for helping to answer questions!  If you don't see your question below, it was likely addressed by one of these forumgoers soon afterward in the thread above.

Quote from: Eric Blank
If a megabeast is worshipped and killed, can part of that megabeast become a holy relic to its worshippers?

Hmm...  do they ever build a temple for megabeasts?  Maybe not?  Those might only come from entity-level worship targets, and the megabeasts are passed through family relationships.  I don't think there's a mechanism yet for aggregate individual beliefs to pass up to the entity, and that'll likely be one of the major challenges as we start in on real entity work a few releases down the line.

Quote from: FantasticDorf
Will other roles like kobold thieves or goblin snatchers in future (with more development of the game and other races) ever be togglable or interactable professions within fortress mode? Given that by editing some memory values (as DFstructures implies) to unrestrict, they could be set up as flags for certain civ types ([BABYSNATCHER] & [ITEM THEIF]) to access, perhaps using the same system as artifact retrievers.

Hard to say, since we're still dwarf-focused in the site-playing mode.  It takes directed work to do those things, so it would have to come up in the normal course of affairs.  Entity definitions will become more flexible, but I'm not sure what that'll bring in terms of new professions.

Quote
Quote from: Thundercraft
Is there a plan to, eventually, allow players to create different types of adv-sites (Adventurer-created sites), aside from just Camps? Perhaps we could one day turn our own camps into a small Hamlet or  Hillock, or maybe even a Lair, Labyrinth, Shrine, or Tomb?
Quote from: pikachu17
is there a plan to allow fort mode sites to become a Hamlet or  Hillock, or aLair, Labyrinth, Shrine, or Tomb?

It's not the priority of the embark scenario stuff, but that's the sort of work which will lead to this kind of thing being possible eventually.  Hopefully there will be different sorts of player fort mode settlements and larger populations available for adv sites under some common framework before the end of time.

Quote from: FantasticDorf
Unless its a secret, what is the typical (or in progress) outlay of kobold sites so far toady?

Not 100% settled yet, so going to remain quiet on it.

Quote from: Untrustedlife
Toady have you read a fantasy novel such as any novel from the Discworld series or the Scion of Shannara series, (or any of the short stories from the Majesty fanatsy kingdom sim series of games (like this http://www.majestypalace.com/page/History_of_Ardania ), (or this http://www.majestypalace.com/page/Sources_for_Majesty_Lore)  or  anything like that)  since the start of the myth generation stuff? and if so will it influence how you go about myth generation for your worlds and what books/stories were they? and if not, do you plan to?

Nope.  We have more than enough myth material for a zillion years already, though I imagine we'll see relevant stuff from other places in the suggestions forum even if the sources aren't always given there.

Quote from: voliol
How come there are no wooden statues? Is is simply something that is so minor that you've never gotten to it, or do you have any other reasons for not including them? It saddened me when I weren't able to create wooden statues of weeping and suffering elves and trees (to place along the path to my trade depot).

No particular reason I can remember, but that decision was made more than a decade ago by now I think, if statues were in the first release.

Quote from: FantasticDorf
Are grown objects actually classed as twigs or logs in a certain narrative of elven ethics and grown nature magic? I guess twigs seeds and fruits wouldn't be much more different to livestock laying eggs/shearing livestock, it makes more sense to value the trunk of the tree as the 'body' and hence why elves dont freak out about camp fires etc since even they probably understand the sentiment to keep warm & safe from non-natural presences.

We haven't specified how the grown items relate to the personhood of the tree...  if the tree is being consulted in some way, etc.  The elves think they are in the clear, anyway.

Quote from: FantasticDorf
Given that the next current few arcs are mostly entity/unit based, has there been any more inward developmental discussion about additional improvements to the natural world? Iterating some of the dev goals for a forseeable point which point towards soil properties/fertility etc.

The myth/magic release isn't particularly entity/unit based, though I don't think it'll be farming directed either.  No specific timeline on any of that, since we don't have specific ordered goals in place after the law/property/embark stuff.

Quote from: Migrant
I am very interested in the 'debugging mode' you mentioned a while back (see the quote for context if it is needed) because I feel a spectator mode would be an ideal extension to Legends Mode. Would you care to elaborate on your debugging mode and would it be feasible to give the players access to this mode?

It's a messy thing I don't want to have to maintain.  We might see something like it when we get to editing historical objects for more fixed worlds, but I'm not sure exactly how that's going to work.

Quote from: Max^TM
Recently while poking around with dfhack I noticed the option to make myself or others a tavern keeper or monster slayer occupation, I tried to make sure it was all linked properly in other locations but can't be sure if I did.

Is there any behavior/response/conversation option in adventurer mode for being/encountering a monster slayer? Being a tavern keeper in a tavern results in people shouting out orders and responding normally there, but I'm not sure where any monster slayer responses would crop up.

Nope, it doesn't use the occupation there yet.  Not sure when we'll start making them work post w.g., since it's a depopulation problem.  Artifact quests don't have that problem.

Quote from: ZM5
The first one has probably been asked before, but will there eventually be legendary/folklore figures generated as well? Something in the vein of King Arthur or Robin Hood, where their existence is disputed and so on.
I'd guess in some worlds they could potentially be actual historical figures (though of course it'd be random as to which parts of the legend would be true, embellishments of the truth or merely made-up events) and in others they'd simply be subjects of legends and works of art.

This could be useful for modding as a replacement for deities and the like - so instead of worshipping deities, some races would revere and look up to the heroes of their legends.

Second question more related to modding: will there be a possibility of being able to mod in set historical figures that always appear in every generated world? As in, they'd always have the same name, race, and description - essentially they'd be constants in the same way as megabeasts and the like are.

Lastly, do you intend to have values affect societal structures in civilizations, as well as their behaviour? For instance, a civilization which values knowledge would be more neutral and send out more scholars and explorers into the world, and their people would give out more quests to get books in adventure mode; whereas a civ that values martial prowess would possibly have a warrior-king/queen with an artifact weapon and legendary combat skills, and a way to gain their respect and/or friendship would be to slay various beasts around the world and bring back parts of their bodies - skulls, hands, etc. - as proof.

It's kind of in the same category as simple lies -- having inaccurate information is hard when we're still grappling with regular information.

When we get to the editor stuff, historical figures would be included.

It already works this way in a few places (societies with a negative view of knowledge don't build libraries, for instance).  Values are underutilized now since they were late to the party, but hopefully we can continue to correct that.

Quote from: falcc
Will people seeking artifacts react different ways when they see an adventurer with said artifact based on their personality? Does respect for the law increase the chances someone will try to demand it over whether they'd barter for it? Are reactions usually positive or do some fellow questers see high reputation as an artifact finder as threatening?

They can start/end at different states from praising down to an immediate conflict/robbery.  Reactions of entity people at the home base are mostly positive, since they generally assume the item is being returned to them, but artifact questers are basically scattered between asking for or demanding the item or accepting defeat or attacking (based on facets/claim type/your rep/values) -- they don't have anything to barter with, so it wasn't considered.  It's possible we'll have a bit more as we flesh out this agent stuff, since they are also under the umbrella of artifact questers and will have a different take on the same "army controller" questers use.  Betrayal is still on the table, especially if you are traveling with ill-natured people, though we might not get to any of that.  Depends on how the agents go.  It would be cool to have an ill-natured quester just hang back or join you and then try to rob you while you sleep, though getting that to work mechanically is a little annoying.

Quote from: pikachu17
how long are you going to make 32 bit compatible versions?

It seems straightforward enough now, but I think the real test'll be the next set of several consecutive bug-fix releases.  It takes longer to put up an individual release now, with all the versions, and if that starts to inhibit new versions, we'll have to consolidate somehow.

Quote from: Untrustedlife
Are there plans for player-lords in adventure mode to send our subordinates on missions to retrieve the "grand holy artifact sock of cheese , heirloom of the DragonBeer clan" in the near future alongside the AI lords?

It's probably not in the near future just because this has been taking so long, but we are approaching the point where doing something like that is equivalent to adding the conversation interface for it (since the rest of the frameworks will be ready), which is pretty cool.

Quote from: Asin
1. Speaking of player-lords as Untrustedlife said, will player-lords be able to influence the laws and such of a civilization if they are in control of the capital eventually?

2. Will it be possible for hamlets and towns/forest retreats/fortresses and hillocks/dark pits and dark fortresses to, if they do not particularly like the laws of their civilization, leave the civ and start their own?

3. Back to player-lords again, will player-lords be able to make a site leave like question 2 says?

1. It's a long way off, but it would be consistent with the rest.  Since laws will be mutable in the initial dwarf scenarios, that part in particular will just be down to having a way for the adventurer to actually exercise their powers, and I'm not sure to what extent the bureaucracy will be modeled, or if you'll just have to declare it to anybody (like the current site takeovers).

2. It'll be the likely premise of one of the first scenarios, for people that don't like monarchs so much.  Whether the ai site-founding lags behind is anybody's guess, since I'll be focusing on player forts first, but I want it to be consistent throughout the world.

Unrelated to this question, I feel like I should emphasize again that "embark scenario" is sort of an unfortunate phrase I've taken to using -- they aren't like strict missions from an RTS or something.  I just mean further information about your embark situation that tends to fall into one category or another, especially as it regards your relationship to your parent civ.

3. Like not your camps, but if you end up as the leader of a hamlet?  Yeah, it's a little tricky -- we'd like all relationships/laws etc. to be capable of changing, but each change requires a specific mechanic/interface etc., especially for the adventurer (since you are right in the middle of it in first person, rather than the abstraction we can do a bit in the fort and a lot in non-player interactions).  So it's hard to say when any one power would be implemented -- player actions as a leader of an entity in adventure mode are almost always going to lag behind every other instance of those actions, since they are the hardest to do (though rarely we'll start with the player, since we'll need the detail up front and that's the best way to do it).
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #994 on: December 01, 2016, 04:41:22 pm »

Referring the answers to Asin's question at the end of the response, it seems sites already defect from civilizations to the point that civs "die" from lack of sites if the world lasts long enough after the initial embark (including the (currently) fixed trading/war "partners"). Thus there seems to be a need for civs to reconquer defecting sites (their own or others) in addition to defectors starting their own civs. A bit suggestionish, but intended as feedback info of long term (many decades) world activation effects.
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Amperzand

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #995 on: December 01, 2016, 07:49:49 pm »

Is there any consideration to including music and so on in the adventure mode? It strikes me as odd it doesn't work in adventure as is.
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Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #996 on: December 01, 2016, 08:57:02 pm »

Well, it looks like a normal entity has the world-gen group, the rocks of lobstering, id 57, was there in year 1 with lots of "first of their kind" citizens, and then those groups set down sites which have a local entity in charge of that site, the fortuitous hammers, id 603 at this site, the alarming bodices, id 652 at that site, but all having a tie back to the rocks of lobstering. When you're a member of the civ group you're in there for good, when you start off as a hearthperson you're just there until you join somewhere else, make your own site, or whatnot.

Adventurer sites don't have a tie to the main civ, only the local site government ones, so you gotta tell people about it directly, and nobody comes there unless you bring them yourself.

BUT

Adding the entity_link > entity_event > founded with the relevant information DOES seem to get notice from nearby sites, I did this about a world tile away from two neighboring dark fortresses and tucked away in the caverns to build undisturbed when I started noticing lots of sense creature icons and found there were literally hundreds of gobs lurking around. Some I bragged to and made hearthpeople, others I beat with the still warm corpses of their buddies until they were added to the corpsebag or ran off. Last check there were something like 19 goblin residents, 338 goblin outcasts, and my bearded elf crazyman there. When I travel away the fortresses keep sending out groups to the camp so they're definitely aware of them.

To fully test it I made myself the lord of a civ level entity, rather than just a site government, and the claim functions properly with assigning hearthpeople and so forth.


So, one kinda vague question: have you already or intended to poke at how adventurer entity claims only operate on the site government level, and if so (or if not really) was it just how it turned out that all the sorts of interactions one would want to operate as a site lord seem to function better as a civ level ruler, and similarly, are the artifact quests/ownership being passed down mostly at the site/family level, or is it that plus the civ level stuff going around too?

Oh oh oh!

I found an army on the march! Actually encountered them tromping around, knew where they were going, and it was mostly by accident: I bumped into the asterisk thinking it was probably the right one, get dropped out of travel mode... then everything freezes.

...hmmm.

So I killed the process and tried again, same thing, so I figured out that I could avoid this by looking where it was heading and just standing there so they bump into me.

Normally that wouldn't matter, but (and this ties into an ever pressing problem for the 32 bit versions) this wasn't just a squad of a half dozen shmucks, that doesn't even show a blip on the lag scale, even fifty or a hundred bandits (as I've encountered other times) didn't cause the sort of "oh god, is my computer about to crap out a lung?" type of CPU/RAM crunching.
Spoiler: Yes, that says 4307 (click to show/hide)
...
Yeah, once I let them load up I sat around 1.2 GB of ram minimum for DF alone, when I just loaded up legends mode to check it out the use went up to 2.6 GB, 257x257 world+massive murder spree and such, gonna be flat out impossible on a 32 bit comp before long if that craziness keeps up... and I kinda hope it does.


So, the game still seemed to process the battle as taking place like I wasn't there getting really good at lodging elf corpses in the headmeat of brand new elf corpses or whatnot.

I think my intercepting it made the game kinda freak out, it was listed as being a full 4333 force invasion, which was defended against, then the 4306 elf invasion succeeded while I was massacring them in town, and later a 2309 or something strength force conquered the town while I was off killing another half of that group before finishing them off completely.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So, that's something, not a broken sleeping army... but uh, definitely unique outside of the massive year 1~10 world-gen sieges.

Oh! One last thing came to mind: are there any other quirky little easter eggs you would think people would have figured out by now, like being able to actually work as a tavern keeper, or the lack of sunlight when dead, perhaps a way to use a wheelbarrow in adventurer mode? I haven't been able to figure it out, not for lack of trying.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #997 on: December 01, 2016, 09:35:35 pm »

Is there any consideration to including music and so on in the adventure mode? It strikes me as odd it doesn't work in adventure as is.
You should probably clarify that if you want an answer. What about music doesn't work? You can sing, you can dance, you can compose.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #998 on: December 01, 2016, 11:03:19 pm »

I think he means like the background music in fort mode, but you might want to put that in lime green if you want it to be answered, Amperzand. :P
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Novel Scoops

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #999 on: December 02, 2016, 04:56:13 am »

When you say "Artifact Agents", do you mean Ring-wraiths?
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1000 on: December 02, 2016, 06:52:53 am »

Oh snrk ring wraiths in player fortress. "We have come for rings ooo~ooh!" "Take them all! And have a complimentary drink!"

thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1001 on: December 02, 2016, 10:17:33 am »

When you say "Artifact Agents", do you mean Ring-wraiths?

More likely Bill Ferny.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1002 on: December 02, 2016, 11:37:22 am »

It seems straightforward enough now, but I think the real test'll be the next set of several consecutive bug-fix releases.

several consecutive bug-fix releases.

Yesssss. ;w;

Novel Scoops

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1003 on: December 02, 2016, 01:17:42 pm »

When you say "Artifact Agents", do you mean Ring-wraiths?

More likely Bill Ferny.

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pikachu17

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1004 on: December 02, 2016, 03:17:22 pm »

Is there any consideration to including music and so on in the adventure mode? It strikes me as odd it doesn't work in adventure as is.
Is there any consideration to including music and so on in the adventure mode? It strikes me as odd it doesn't work in adventure as is.
(sorry, but you didn't make it limegreen, and I want the answer to this question)
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