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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 750913 times)

Fleeting Frames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1035 on: December 07, 2016, 03:34:40 am »

Dunno if it isn't an option. Never looked into it :v

golemgunk

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1036 on: December 07, 2016, 04:47:04 am »

Do Goblin agents have to report back to their masters or send messengers to update their civ's information?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 05:46:37 pm by golemgunk »
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Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1037 on: December 07, 2016, 08:54:09 am »

Oh man the intrigue and whatnot which is gonna take place is exciting, but the bugs from goblins being deep undercover for years and then you walk into town and they go "wait, I have to kill all these neutrals!" and blow their cover in an orgy of confusing violence will be great as well.

Criminals roaming around town properly too will be nice.
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Engraved here is a rendition of an image of the Dwarf Fortress learning curve. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It depicts an obsidian overhang which menaces with spikes of obsidian and tears. Carved on the overhang is an image of Toady One and the players. The players are curled up in a fetal position. Toady One is laughing. The players are burning.
The VectorCurses+1 tileset strikes the square set and the severed part sails off in an arc!

letsdance

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1038 on: December 08, 2016, 12:32:41 am »

Why would he put therapist in rather than manipulator which was designed for the df interface and a built-in part that feels totally natural thanks to dfhack?
i don't know the manipulator. i also don't think adding DT is realistic. it's more the idea of what should be added to DF: a useful dwarf management system. any!

i'm not going to ever play DF without something like it, so it's really mandatory in my oppinion. the important thing for me is finding the best suitable dwarf for a certain job. that means i need a sorting function. DT just does it just right and i don't care which direction the text is written (besides can't you change that in the options?). the only thing missing in DT is squad management. especially for equipping dwarves the DF interface is tedious.

since in general people won't have the same oppinion about what dwarf is "best", no AI can ever replace a management system like that. besides, it doesn't look like they're working on that topic at all.
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1039 on: December 08, 2016, 03:14:21 am »

Efficiency is highly overrated.

Also, it's not a matter of opinion which dwarf is best, you can mathematically show which dwarf is best out of a group for a given labor pretty easily.

Also, the eventual plan is for dwarves to have some manner of agency regarding their own labor choices, anyway. Yeah, you'll get the occasional dud of a dwarf who wants to be a wood crafter despite having no creativity and no fine motor skills, but that's part of the fun.

Fleeting Frames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1040 on: December 08, 2016, 12:03:05 pm »

Regarding showing which dwarf is best, for single given labour in vacuum, yes, but there are other considerations: How much other work the dwarf has, the reliability and timing needed in those jobs, the needed timeliness of current job, all that and how much worse they are for second best, third best, fourth best....

Some dwarves are just all-around inferior than others for certain jobs, but they still get some of those jobs due best dude being too busy. But while perfect labour layout is probably devisable, it's a factorial matrix outputting to dwarvesx22+? deep sorting function tied to traveling salesman problem, needing to be run every time dwarf labour pool changes, at the very least.

Though yeah, most materials are plentiful enough that picking any dwarf and telling them to do the job on repeat till you have desired number of masterworks is suitable enough (maybe with a brief training period) (with exception granted to the rarest of rare materials in rock crystals). But I think it's also treated as challenge to perfectionism - I've read few stories on these boards of people savescumming or abandoning forts because they dug out wrong square.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 12:05:12 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1041 on: December 08, 2016, 05:52:28 pm »

i think saying any NP-complete problem is "tied to traveling salesman problem" is a bit tautological but whatever

anyway, autolabor with DFHack does fine by just sort of enabling and disabling appropriate labors on certain individuals whenever the need arises for such unless they're doing something interruptable; I consider the future of "dwarves do what they want" to be ideal anyway.

Fleeting Frames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1042 on: December 09, 2016, 03:51:24 am »

Well, it's about how you'd solve the problem. Just because it is NP-complete doesn't mean it isn't solvable quickly, with short variable list.

I know about autolabor, and it is a lovely thing, but it doesn't really account for moods or timing versus quality, I think. When building the most valuable bridge ever, you only want your best to minimize times you have to build it; a dabbling dwarf will likely not produce two masterworks in a row.

ChristianWeiseth

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1043 on: December 09, 2016, 05:31:32 am »

Both as a Norwegian and the future possibility of trireme styled ships and harbors, I have to ask

"Will there be fjords in worldgen? And will they be populated with parrots?"



Love the possibility of having a Dwarf Fortress with harbor, like the Dwarven Hold of Barak Varr in the old now trashed warhammer lore



« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 09:46:15 am by ChristianWeiseth »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1044 on: December 09, 2016, 06:38:43 am »

With the planned 'stolen artifact recovery squads', what's the range of the artifacts you'll be able to send people out to recover? Artifacts stolen from your fortress? Artifacts stolen from your civ hundreds of years ago? Artifacts not stolen from you at all but your mayor thought they'd look pretty good on his shelf after hearing a drunken elven bard sing about them? Will there be an actual 'game' element to this (recover artifacts to deal with noble demands, cure a depressed population or something) or is it just something fun to do?

and...

When the new spies come to check out your artifacts, will there be any way of working out who they are? Will the fortress guard or other diligent dorfs notice them acting suspiciously and accuse them?

Oh, also...

You mentioned peddlers on Twitter the other day, will they also turn up in fortress mode? Does this mean you're replacing the old merchant system finally or will both systems remain for now?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 06:42:53 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Rubik

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1045 on: December 09, 2016, 09:42:18 am »

With the planned 'stolen artifact recovery squads', what's the range of the artifacts you'll be able to send people out to recover? Artifacts stolen from your fortress? Artifacts stolen from your civ hundreds of years ago? Artifacts not stolen from you at all but your mayor thought they'd look pretty good on his shelf after hearing a drunken elven bard sing about them? Will there be an actual 'game' element to this (recover artifacts to deal with noble demands, cure a depressed population or something) or is it just something fun to do?

and...

When the new spies come to check out your artifacts, will there be any way of working out who they are? Will the fortress guard or other diligent dorfs notice them acting suspiciously and accuse them?

Oh, also...

You mentioned peddlers on Twitter the other day, will they also turn up in fortress mode? Does this mean you're replacing the old merchant system finally or will both systems remain for now?

It's just a guess, of course, but I imagine peddlers as merchants with more exquisite/valuable things to sell, and without season fixations, unlike caravans, they could show up in your fortress just like normal visitors
Pretty good adition by the way, Adds a  more tasteful realism to the game, and remind me of the tinkers from the kingkiller's chronicle, which is comfy

As for the other questions

-It should make sense that you had to know about an artifact to command someone to look for it, apart from that, you should be able to send anybody to look out for any trinket you want, atleast until law and diplomacy hits in (ex. your king considering the recovery of an artifact a personal matter and prohibits any vasal to look for it without his permission). Now, the important bit, is that they might not come back. For example if the artifact has been lost for centuries, the chance of finding it is considerably lower than normal, something to take in consideration

-For the spies. Again, a wild guess, but although I want specially dumb dwarves to unmask themselves as criminals for mistakes, I suppose firts-update agents will work similarly as vampires, they do stuff, you start being suspicious, and you find him
It would be interesting if one noble could be asigned to see who makes certain questions about artifacts, that way you could know who 'might' be a spy, and act acordingly
Now, obtaining the info for whom does he work is kinda hard without torture, and I dont think its gonna be added soon, or ever
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 10:01:30 am by Rubik »
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1046 on: December 09, 2016, 10:51:50 am »

"Will there be fjords in worldgen? And will they be populated with parrots?"
If by fjords you mean "adjacent mountain and sea", you can have these right now - even a world that's almost entirely made of them, with custom worldgen.

However, grey parrots occur only in tropical moist broadleaf forests (unless you mod them), so you have to include some rainy and hot mid-elevation areas.

Mr S

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1047 on: December 09, 2016, 10:34:22 pm »

But, what about the Norwegian Blue parrot?  Lovely plumage, the Norwegian Blue.
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Rockphed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1048 on: December 09, 2016, 10:54:07 pm »

But, what about the Norwegian Blue parrot?  Lovely plumage, the Norwegian Blue.

I feel like you are referencing something, but I cannot place my finger on what.  Also, I'm pretty sure that this is an ex-joke.
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Only vaguely. Made of the same substance and put to the same use, but a bit like comparing a castle and a doublewide trailer.

☼Another☼

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1049 on: December 09, 2016, 11:13:21 pm »

Will what we can display in display cases be governed by ethics? Since humans have the ethic [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_ANIMAL:ACCEPTABLE], would they be able to display animals in cases, as opposed to elves, with this ethic: [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_ANIMAL:UNTHINKABLE]
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