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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 904970 times)

Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1425 on: February 25, 2017, 09:37:46 pm »

probably 0.45.01, or at least that's what i'm betting on

Witty

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1426 on: February 26, 2017, 11:29:34 am »

Toady, how will player adventurer named items be treated in a player fortress? Would they just be treated as another unique blue named item in the artifact screen?
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Quote from: Toady One
I understand that it is disappointing when a dwarf makes a spiked loincloth instead of an axe.

Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1427 on: February 26, 2017, 04:05:37 pm »

That's what I would expect.
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Rubik

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1428 on: February 27, 2017, 11:12:50 am »

@Kitsune
Your energetic behaviour fills me with determination!
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1429 on: February 27, 2017, 11:40:40 am »

@Kitsune
Your energetic behaviour fills me with determination!

Rubik confirmed for Focused!
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On DF Wiki · On DFFD

"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.

KillzEmAllGod

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1430 on: February 27, 2017, 10:12:53 pm »

How far off are forts being able to send requests for monster hunters or groups of mercenaries to show up at the fort?
Will player forts be able to offer quests to visitors?
Seeing as there's been a bit of inaction from invaders since the world came alive will there be actions within a fort that can cause invaders to show up more often?
Has the Loyalty cascade bug been addressed at all given that there was something like that with the guard and the lord or might this issue be dealt with in the future?


Some might have been asked, I'm more looking forward to the Fortress Starting Scenarios then massive magic one. I just want pointless laws and a dysfunctional society.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 08:03:59 pm by KillzEmAllGod »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1431 on: February 27, 2017, 10:26:07 pm »

How far off are forts being able to send requests for monster hunters or groups of mercenaries to show up at the fort?
Will player forts be able to offer quests to visitors?
Seeing as there's been a bit of inaction from invaders since the world came alive will there be actions within a fort that can cause invaders to show up more often?
Has the Loyalty cascade bug been addressed at all given that there was something like that with the guard and the lord or might this issue be dealt with in the future?


Some might have been asked, I'm more looking forward to the Fortress Starting Scenarios then massive magic one. I just want pointless laws and a dysfunctional society.
Doesn't seem very important to be able to request mercs right now. Open an inn and hundreds turn up whether you want them or not.

Invaders turn up just fine. They're just set to not show up until you reach population 80. Which takes quite a while so some people think they've gone missing like in the last release. Just change the trigger to something lower if you want sieges sooner.

Artifacts will also be attractors of invaders in the next release. Not quite sure how much impact that will have though. Theoretically it might cause people other than those at the nearest site to come and attack you. Which would be nice as that site running out of troops is a reason sieges might stop coming right now.

Loyalty cascades are very much toned down compared to before. Even a recent report during the last release of visitors suddenly fighting due to a siege was addressed and tweaked more. The devblog confusion was caused by something completely new, so irrelevant (and fixed already before release apparently). "Loyalty cascade bug" is not any one thing, it's a result of having deeply conflicted, complex individuals populating the world.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 10:28:53 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Beag

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1432 on: February 28, 2017, 07:32:37 pm »

I hope Toady One answers my questions in his upcoming Future of the Fortress reply.
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KillzEmAllGod

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1433 on: February 28, 2017, 08:02:45 pm »

Doesn't seem very important to be able to request mercs right now. Open an inn and hundreds turn up whether you want them or not.

Invaders turn up just fine. They're just set to not show up until you reach population 80. Which takes quite a while so some people think they've gone missing like in the last release. Just change the trigger to something lower if you want sieges sooner.

Artifacts will also be attractors of invaders in the next release. Not quite sure how much impact that will have though. Theoretically it might cause people other than those at the nearest site to come and attack you. Which would be nice as that site running out of troops is a reason sieges might stop coming right now.

Loyalty cascades are very much toned down compared to before. Even a recent report during the last release of visitors suddenly fighting due to a siege was addressed and tweaked more. The devblog confusion was caused by something completely new, so irrelevant (and fixed already before release apparently). "Loyalty cascade bug" is not any one thing, it's a result of having deeply conflicted, complex individuals populating the world.
[/quote]
Not seen a monster hunter show up yet.

Invaders have other places in the would to be attacking so the fortress isn't the only target.

Loyalty cascades are strange so might just rephrase that to How does identities impact factions and loyalties?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1434 on: February 28, 2017, 10:07:00 pm »

Monster hunters are acknowledged to be broken. Or they're so rare they never show up. Or are actually those crossbow mercs that do show up but their petitions are broken. Something like that.
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Rubik

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1435 on: March 01, 2017, 12:19:46 am »

I hope Toady One answers my questions in his upcoming Future of the Fortress reply.
he doesnt usually leave many of them unanswered
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iceball3

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1436 on: March 03, 2017, 06:05:48 am »

With the advent of the new mentioned "sending folks off the map" for artifact fetching situations, will we see more discrete explicit strategic interactions come into play in concerns with nearby sites and their holders, or is that for another release cycle? For instance, making deliberate diplomatic demands/requests to groups associated with nearby sites, as well as receiving them likewise.
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Daniel the Finlander

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1437 on: March 05, 2017, 06:34:25 am »

In the current version, once you found a fortress near a goblin civ, they declare war on your civilization and usually end up decimating them. Sometimes goblins also declare war on nearby human and elf civs, conquer their sites and make you unable to trade with them.

So, two questions: why do goblins declare war on your civ if you settle near them and what makes goblins so successful in conquest post-world gen?
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chances are their heads are being melted completely off due to pain forcing them to cry and tears don't evaporate so they just increase in temperature searing through the skull to the brain.

PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1438 on: March 05, 2017, 07:29:41 am »

In the current version, once you found a fortress near a goblin civ, they declare war on your civilization and usually end up decimating them. Sometimes goblins also declare war on nearby human and elf civs, conquer their sites and make you unable to trade with them.

So, two questions: why do goblins declare war on your civ if you settle near them and what makes goblins so successful in conquest post-world gen?
Goblins are supposed to be EVIL and are lead by demon masters. Somehow they've also taken on the role of somewhat ordinary civ building creatures, though. On the civ level they're out to enslave everyone else, as directed by their masters, while on the individual level they have somewhat barbaric original customs and inherent nasty traits, but aren't out of place as members of other civs (such as the cannibalistic elves or constantly in-fighting humans). The odd thing is rather that goblins frequently are at peace with the elves and/or humans you are in contact with, while they really ought to be at the --- "not currently at war" stage.
Goblins do not age, do not need to eat, and can thrive in any biome that isn't good or too savage (or too wet: they can't handle oceans...). These characteristics give them advantages that let them dominate the world given enough time in most cases.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1439 on: March 05, 2017, 08:15:59 am »

In the current version, once you found a fortress near a goblin civ, they declare war on your civilization and usually end up decimating them. Sometimes goblins also declare war on nearby human and elf civs, conquer their sites and make you unable to trade with them.

So, two questions: why do goblins declare war on your civ if you settle near them and what makes goblins so successful in conquest post-world gen?

I have a impromptu answer to this question, goblins are set to a hostile default (because of babysnatcher prefix) and often the civ (human, elves) are the aggressor because goblins have abhorrent ethical standards (treatment of animals/plants/eating of bodies etc.) as when goblins attack nearby settlement (attacking dwarfs who almost never call aggressive wars) they have their own motives based more in politics rather than ethics.

> In a defensive war, every time a village is sacked by goblins it collectively makes the goblins stronger and the opposing side weaker, i don't know precisely why but the amount of goblins increases (you could say this is population management saying pillaging = more food/wealth increase the pop cap) usually goblins hold out well enough to starve the wars off or remain stifled and don't do anything for the remaining of worldgen.
  • I've personally seen goblins swing wars through successive pillages to raise armies and start to slog and overwhelm the opposition when given a numerical advantage, humans do much the same though they are numerous anyway, hence successful at dominating late-game world generation.

If post-artifact update we gained more elaborate negotiation as well as player input to diplomatic decisions (formal agreement being to hand over a artifact on threat of war, then denying it by locking it in the room past the deadline), we might understand more about the reasons goblins get triggered to commit to wars themselves without obvious ethical conflicts (goblins inhibit 'evil' spheres, adding more primary spheres doesn't do much for them behaviorally though its a interesting thing to do.)
  • Just to remember that if a race is hostile, until acted on with a 'casus belli' there is effectively a uneasy truce between them and all other races.


If you unset the ability to not eat, and instead make them carnivorous (goblins are already bone carnivores and eat food just fine) i find there is no difference to goblin population in relevance to the hardiness of them because they carry food (trolls/beak dogs) which are replenished via common domestic wherever they go. (Plus no biome supp numbers, just a base of 1)

Using the pillaging example, "Stolen Wealth = Food = Population growth -> More animals = Small increment to total Wealth & Population sustainability", when that formula goes wrong you see spirals of population even beyond the defined cap of a site as the civ becomes immensely wealthy via a mix of labor created items (big dark fortresses have great stashes of discarded goblinite because of defined space for weapons piles the civ fills up from invaders & dead soldiers/production) animals increase and obviously each member of the civ must be clothed adding to value.

Besides kobolds or thieves/site being routed and finished there is no natural way to divide up that value or detract from it.

> Question for Toady, if you were to tally up (for ease sake omitting value of the walls and value per discovered floorspace) the cost of a hillock or world-gen fortress based on its founding furniture, how many units of Urist would it cost to 'buy' a prebuilt settlement?

Which is economically important if you were to do math saying that 1500 urists is a generic supply budget for founding a fortress that hasn't already been prefabbed and equipped to buy the tools, and experts and then from there on rely on immigrants, traders and local production.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 08:21:29 am by FantasticDorf »
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