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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 781891 times)

PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1470 on: March 08, 2017, 11:35:27 am »

I think you misunderstood what I tried to say: I don't think the ability to draw the members of a single siege from multiple sites to yield a reasonably sized siege will be implemented unless it's either trivial to do or somehow required for artifact sieges to function. I view that as distinct from the introduction of multiple sites being able to each initiate their own sieges drawn from their own populations.
However, rereading wooks' post, I think I, in turn, might have misunderstood that question...
Eagerly awaiting next month's answer...
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1471 on: March 08, 2017, 12:55:36 pm »

I think you misunderstood what I tried to say: I don't think the ability to draw the members of a single siege from multiple sites to yield a reasonably sized siege will be implemented unless it's either trivial to do or somehow required for artifact sieges to function. I view that as distinct from the introduction of multiple sites being able to each initiate their own sieges drawn from their own populations.
However, rereading wooks' post, I think I, in turn, might have misunderstood that question...
Eagerly awaiting next month's answer...

Needs to be written in green.
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spudcosmic

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1472 on: March 08, 2017, 03:10:41 pm »

What kind of threats on our artifacts will we see in fort mode? It'd be great if this was a challenge. A siege is easy enough to defend and is more of a threat on your dwarfs than your artifacts, and the current kobold thieves aren't really a threat. New methods involving the identity system would be fun. Perhaps a spy could grab an artifact when no one is looking and try to make it out before anyone notices it's gone, or perhaps a small group of ambushers could come to the fortress as visitors, take the artifact, then try to fight their way out.
 
What information will the player have available to them prior to sending out a retrieval party? Information like if it's known to be at a current site, if so what type and who owns it, and if not known possibly how was it lost and what was it's last known whereabouts. That would be crucial to know when sending out a party. I imagine an artifact known to be held at a dark fortress might need an entire siege party, while an artifact with unknown whereabouts might just need a couple of dwarfs to wander around searching for it. 

Will the player be able to send out spies or take advantage of spies already sent out by their civilization? They're important for artifact location, if the goblins use them for that purpose hopefully the player can as well. Perhaps spies could also be used to gain news of the world from sources other than diplomat visits. It'd be a nice touch.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1473 on: March 08, 2017, 04:03:02 pm »

I think you misunderstood what I tried to say: I don't think the ability to draw the members of a single siege from multiple sites to yield a reasonably sized siege will be implemented unless it's either trivial to do or somehow required for artifact sieges to function. I view that as distinct from the introduction of multiple sites being able to each initiate their own sieges drawn from their own populations.
However, rereading wooks' post, I think I, in turn, might have misunderstood that question...
Eagerly awaiting next month's answer...

Needs to be written in green.
No it doesn't, as wooks' question is marked in green already, and that's what's under discussion.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1474 on: March 08, 2017, 04:44:29 pm »

I think you misunderstood what I tried to say: I don't think the ability to draw the members of a single siege from multiple sites to yield a reasonably sized siege will be implemented unless it's either trivial to do or somehow required for artifact sieges to function. I view that as distinct from the introduction of multiple sites being able to each initiate their own sieges drawn from their own populations.
However, rereading wooks' post, I think I, in turn, might have misunderstood that question...
Eagerly awaiting next month's answer...
Oh, I see what you mean now. One siege made up of goblins from lots of different sites? Yeah, that's pretty advanced. I was actually thinking about putting that up in the suggestions forum. One main goblin army with a claim on your artifacts which recruits/attracts troops from other sites as they pass through them on the way to your site (along with beasts from lairs and such). Varying degrees of success depending on your wealth and general reputation. That'd be awesome. But, as you say, probably beyond the scope of this release.

No, my only expectation was for sieges to be sent (one at a time) from various sites in the world dependent of artifact claims/rumours and not just distance.

--
Afterthought.
Of course, multiple sieges at once is possible right now. You see it in Fortress Defence from time to time and we've all seen the 'armies' of dancers who turn up mid-siege to much hilarity. So it's not too far off happening.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 06:05:23 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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King Mir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1475 on: March 08, 2017, 06:03:40 pm »

I'm disappointed that my question wasn't answered:
Why is DF slow? That is, how aware are you of the performance bottlenecks of the game? Do you as the developer have any special insights into what bottlenecks or weak links exist?
Shonai_Dweller attempted to give an answer, but his answer was useless to me because it tell me nothing about what Toady thinks.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1476 on: March 08, 2017, 06:10:40 pm »

I'm disappointed that my question wasn't answered:
Why is DF slow? That is, how aware are you of the performance bottlenecks of the game? Do you as the developer have any special insights into what bottlenecks or weak links exist?
Shonai_Dweller attempted to give an answer, but his answer was useless to me because it tell me nothing about what Toady thinks.
Go watch the videos and interviews with Tarn where he talks about this. He doesn't go into great technical detail (presumably because he doesn't want to) but he specifically says he is aware of the bottlenecks and has a list of many things that need addressing.

If you need more technical insight into his coding methods you're probably better off using email. This thread is mainly about upcoming developments.
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Chase

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1477 on: March 08, 2017, 09:25:49 pm »

Digging enemies?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 09:27:34 pm by Chase »
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Chase

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1478 on: March 08, 2017, 09:28:35 pm »

When are digging critters planned on being implemented.?
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1479 on: March 08, 2017, 11:04:33 pm »

When are digging critters planned on being implemented.?

I'm gonna hope and pray it'll have entity token so I can inevitably disable it. ;w;
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King Mir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1480 on: March 08, 2017, 11:13:03 pm »

I'm disappointed that my question wasn't answered:
Why is DF slow? That is, how aware are you of the performance bottlenecks of the game? Do you as the developer have any special insights into what bottlenecks or weak links exist?
Shonai_Dweller attempted to give an answer, but his answer was useless to me because it tell me nothing about what Toady thinks.
Go watch the videos and interviews with Tarn where he talks about this. He doesn't go into great technical detail (presumably because he doesn't want to) but he specifically says he is aware of the bottlenecks and has a list of many things that need addressing.

If you need more technical insight into his coding methods you're probably better off using email. This thread is mainly about upcoming developments.
I think I've seen those videos, but I always want to know more

Good point about it not being "Future of the Fortress" stuff. Maybe I can get him to answer it in a DF talk, if that ever happens again...

PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1481 on: March 09, 2017, 03:35:38 am »

When are digging critters planned on being implemented.?

I'm gonna hope and pray it'll have entity token so I can inevitably disable it. ;w;
Presumably somewhere after multi tile machinery, and probably in conjunction with better sieges (and armies) overall. Digging enemies ought to show up together with working siege machinery (that can be aimed in directions different from the cardinals, as well as at different Z levels), ladders, ladder towers, and battering rams on the attacker side, and working catapults/ballistae, cauldrons of boiling oil, tactics for caving in, burning, and smoking out sappers on the defense side.
And yes, I think it's intended to be possible to turn digging off.
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AceSV

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1482 on: March 10, 2017, 08:06:15 am »

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Daniel the Finlander
So mundane worlds won't have elves or goblins, but will they have dwarves? If not, will fortress mode even be playable, or will we be able to play as humans instead?

To confirm what somebody else said, we're definitely going to have dwarf-free worlds on both end of the spectrum.  We're going to try to make fortress mode playable since it's the more complete mode of the game, but if that makes the mundane worlds too weird trying to shoehorn that in before we get to proper human village management, we might just leave it out.

What I would do in this case is have dwarves be "extinct" so if you are starting a fortress in mundane mode, you are always the only dwarf fortress in the world. 

Quote
Quote
About non-dwarf migrant waves
We're getting closer, but I think it'd still be kind of confusing with some more exposition if you suddenly got nothing but humans or jumping spider people for your first migrant wave the first time you play the game. 

Perhaps as a way to deal with this, I've always wished I could get more information about cities on the embark screen.  Maybe cursoring over a city could tell you something like:

Razzlefazzle
Hillocks
Controlled by The Teeth of Nails (Goblin)
Built by The Irons of Milking (Dwarven) (extinct)
Population:
Goblins |||||||---
Dwarves ||--------
Jumping Spider Men |--------

There could be something like that for your own civilization, like
The Sledge of Turbulence
Dwarven
Mountain Homes (Capital) is FlagMerchants in the Dune of Answering
Population:
Dwarves |||||-----
 - (Fair haired |||||||---)
 - (Black eyes ||||------)
 - (Fair skinned |||-------)
 - (Ruddy skinned ||--------)
Jumping Spider Men ||--------
Elves |---------
 - (Mossy haired |||||-----)
 - (Ochre skinned ||||------)

On the embark info for your own fortress, there could be a little bit that says Projected Immigrants: Dwarves 30%, Jumping Spider Men 60%, Other 10%, Projected Visitors: Goblins 60%, Barn Owl Man 10%, Other 30%. 

If you're still worried that non-dwarf migrant waves would be confusing initially, you could always hack it so that the first waves are only dwarves, or at least 50% dwarves.  And you could always have a slider for Cultural Mixing that determines how likely places are to have non-founder populations.  That way, if they've touched the slider, they should at least expect that it's possible for non-dwarves to show up. 
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1483 on: March 10, 2017, 08:16:45 am »

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Daniel the Finlander
So mundane worlds won't have elves or goblins, but will they have dwarves? If not, will fortress mode even be playable, or will we be able to play as humans instead?

To confirm what somebody else said, we're definitely going to have dwarf-free worlds on both end of the spectrum.  We're going to try to make fortress mode playable since it's the more complete mode of the game, but if that makes the mundane worlds too weird trying to shoehorn that in before we get to proper human village management, we might just leave it out.

What I would do in this case is have dwarves be "extinct" so if you are starting a fortress in mundane mode, you are always the only dwarf fortress in the world. 

If there's no dwarves in your world, it's not going to randomly generate them out of thin air just for you to play fortress. That kind of defies the point creating a mundane world and would be a massive step backwards in the development of the simulation...

Just going to have to wait until human towns and villages are playable to play sites in mundane worlds.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1484 on: March 10, 2017, 08:54:51 am »

I agree with Shonai_Dweller that generating a dwarf free world and then add dwarves to it would defeat the purpose of generating such worlds. It's highly unlikely Toady would waste time on such a temporary feature when that time could be spent towards getting human settlements to be playable (even if it doesn't get as far as reaching that goal in that release).

Migrant control would probably fit fairly well with the stuff done with embark scenarios, so that's where I'd look for those kind of features.
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