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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 786444 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2295 on: August 21, 2017, 02:22:32 am »

I doubt races will be non organic, as that will mess things up even more than they're already going to be. What would a fire based race use for sustenance, and how does farming/livestock come into play? This sounds like enhancements that can be added after 1.0...

As for extra dimensional creatures (Titans/FBs/Clowns currently) I believe divine materials, slade, and candy are already off the list.

They... wouldn't use anything, like goblins do now.
Goblins raise trolls and shear them for their wool to make clothes.

Would be a bit of a waste if random creature civs all ended up as titan-like critters. No need for food, farming, or anything. Utterly boring worldsim.

I like the part in the PC Gamer interview where Toady muses on how one simple innate ability (teleportation) should end up effecting almost everything we know about society. But slade hulks as actual civs would be a step too far, I think (but modders, go crazy, sure).

I thought you meant food. A fire civ would, for example, coat their weapons with fire to make them ignite people. Sorta like the draconians in my mod, but their armor ignites non-draconians trying to wear it, by the virtue of being dragonfire-hot.
It's a cool idea, of course, but as PatrikLundell said, post ver 1.0. Otherwise Toady's going to have to put development on hold and spend years developing sites for every single possible variant of civ. What kind of sites do vomit creatures build? What about amphibious vomit creatures, flying vomit creatures, underground vomit creatures, etc, etc?

Or an engine robust enough to create site types automatically based on the main creatures in a civ (probably just as long). And lets not get into multi-racial civs as most of them are these days.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2296 on: August 21, 2017, 02:32:18 am »

Yes, when it comes to site support, there's much lower hanging fruit to harvest first, like elven, human, and goblin sites (kobold sites just got an overhaul, but as far as I understand, that's "only" for visiting purposes, not as a complete working "fortress" site).
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2297 on: August 21, 2017, 02:39:19 am »

Good news is, the editor which is planned (probably not in the first mythgen release, but sometime "soon") should enable you to design your own sites. Those firey vomit temples may be nearer than you expect! Maybe.
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KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2298 on: August 21, 2017, 02:43:38 am »

Good news is, the editor which is planned (probably not in the first mythgen release, but sometime "soon") should enable you to design your own sites. Those firey vomit temples may be nearer than you expect! Maybe.

Coupled with mythgen including destroyable walls, and knowing how fragile fire and vomit are...
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2299 on: August 21, 2017, 03:40:46 am »

Good news is, the editor which is planned (probably not in the first mythgen release, but sometime "soon") should enable you to design your own sites. Those firey vomit temples may be nearer than you expect! Maybe.

Coupled with mythgen including destroyable walls, and knowing how fragile fire and vomit are...
Who needs magma when you can swamp the land in flammable vomit? And then ride your boats out over it flanked by muck elementals and...
Oops far, far future DF geekout there, must calm down.
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Mr S

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2300 on: August 21, 2017, 01:08:24 pm »

What was going to be covered in the dev item "support for the journey" (seems to have been skipped for this time?)? Is that something like hiring hill dwarves and such to assist? Or sending ahead word for supplies to be prepared?

What we've seen so far as far as preparing for and supporting, or sustaining, our intrepid dwarven squad off map has been handled as a "hand wave". We will just assume that the unlucky bastards chosen heroes of the Fort sent forth in their fool's errand Noble Endeavor have packed enough kitten tallow biscuits and gutter crour to make it safely There and Back Again (tm).

Toady has said he's not getting into resupply stops, side mission raids, or economy shenanigans to support these treks, yet.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2301 on: August 21, 2017, 01:48:59 pm »

Yes, when it comes to site support, there's much lower hanging fruit to harvest first, like elven, human, and goblin sites (kobold sites just got an overhaul, but as far as I understand, that's "only" for visiting purposes, not as a complete working "fortress" site).

we already have elf,human,dwarven,goblin sites, kobolds were the last ones we needed, i mean, im sure he will work on them further, but we have them all now.
Unless you meant for dwarf mode. IM sure he will get to it eventually in taht case, and it already "understands" alot about them.

They are all quite interetsing to visit now.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 01:55:03 pm by Untrustedlife »
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tkamat29

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2302 on: August 21, 2017, 06:06:31 pm »

Has the stress system been fixed for the next release? I recall someone mentioning that the effects from inebriation were too strong, has this been confirmed yet? The stress system as it stands is quite a pity, I have never even had a dwarf with positive stress level before, which basically removes an entire facet of the game.  :(
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JohnnyYuma

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2303 on: August 21, 2017, 10:36:28 pm »

Is it planned to introduce some basic economy that would make civs choose what to buy and sell based on what they need and provide a steady growth? Can the game track all the goods in the world at least rudimentary?

Personally I find this idea interesting - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163691.0
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2304 on: August 21, 2017, 10:45:42 pm »

Is it planned to introduce some basic economy that would make civs choose what to buy and sell based on what they need and provide a steady growth? Can the game track all the goods in the world at least rudimentary?

Personally I find this idea interesting - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163691.0
Yes. Should be in the dev notes somewhere. But basically it's up next after mythgen and starting scenarios (politics and society) arcs. But maybe boats will come first.

So probably about 10 years from now, at least.

And it probably won't be 'basic'...
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JohnnyYuma

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2305 on: August 21, 2017, 10:54:03 pm »

Is it planned to introduce some basic economy that would make civs choose what to buy and sell based on what they need and provide a steady growth? Can the game track all the goods in the world at least rudimentary?

Personally I find this idea interesting - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163691.0
Yes. Should be in the dev notes somewhere. But basically it's up next after mythgen and starting scenarios (politics and society) arcs. But maybe boats will come first.

So probably about 10 years from now, at least.

And it probably won't be 'basic'...

That idea described in "suggestions" is interesting because it could provide some basic elements first, elements that should be enough to make the world believable and realistic, without devoting that much time. I'm no professional programmer but perhaps Toady could provide something like described in that post while working on some other things before overhauling the economy entirely and making it very realistic, which seems to be the goal.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2306 on: August 21, 2017, 11:36:16 pm »

Is it planned to introduce some basic economy that would make civs choose what to buy and sell based on what they need and provide a steady growth? Can the game track all the goods in the world at least rudimentary?

Personally I find this idea interesting - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163691.0
Yes. Should be in the dev notes somewhere. But basically it's up next after mythgen and starting scenarios (politics and society) arcs. But maybe boats will come first.

So probably about 10 years from now, at least.

And it probably won't be 'basic'...

That idea described in "suggestions" is interesting because it could provide some basic elements first, elements that should be enough to make the world believable and realistic, without devoting that much time. I'm no professional programmer but perhaps Toady could provide something like described in that post while working on some other things before overhauling the economy entirely and making it very realistic, which seems to be the goal.
Why waste time on a placeholder when it's already planned? Just extends development for no real reason. There's a good chance that society and law updates will make any temporary system you put in now mostly obsolete. That's a year of work that gets thrown away.

Sure, I know nothing, but it's kind of hard to see Toady building up the motivation to do that when there's intersting things that still need developing (magic, boats, editor, etc). He's more likely just to work on economics simulations in his side projects until he gets somewhere near where he want df to be.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2307 on: August 22, 2017, 02:01:15 am »

Yes, the way Toady seems to work is to get something that's good enough (by his reckoning: various players typically disagree about their pet things) until it's time to do it properly. As Shonai_Dweller said, any additional steps in between is basically time lost, and would basically happen for reasons like:
- It turns out it actually wasn't good enough.
- Other development trashes it, so it has to be re-implemented back to at least good enough status.
- Interest/side projects has fired up the interest in the feature, so it's essentially updated ahead of time.
- The "complete" feature involves so may complexities that it will require multiple steps in which evaluation and course correction/path selection is needed, and side projects might not be enough for this investigation.
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Hapchazzard

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2308 on: August 22, 2017, 06:21:51 am »

Currently, it seems planned that worldgen will go through two stages: "creation"(mythgen) and then "history"(current history generation). Are there plans to possibly add an in-between stage for ancient, poorly recorded history before "Year 1" for historical events that happened in the remote past? To elaborate, this would be things like "around 7000 years ago, The Hammers of Dwarfiness was founded by Urist McLegendary" or "around 3500 years ago, the legendary dragon [DragonName] was slain by the human hero [HeroName]". Right now it would be infeasible to generate over 5000 years of proper history(few people have the PC or patience for it), and there's not much distinction between proper, well-recorded historical events(e.g. a major battle that happened just 54 years ago) and vague, legend-sy events that happened possibly before even writing existed(e.g. the founding of a civilization).

So, is there some sort of system planned to support this? It would really help with worlds having a feeling of ancientness and tying "creation"(mythgen) and well-recorded history in a more logical way.
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Killermartian

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2309 on: August 22, 2017, 06:32:06 am »

Will a deity be able to create some sort of artifact book and pass it to some race?
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