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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 759925 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2310 on: August 22, 2017, 06:57:04 am »

Yes, when it comes to site support, there's much lower hanging fruit to harvest first, like elven, human, and goblin sites (kobold sites just got an overhaul, but as far as I understand, that's "only" for visiting purposes, not as a complete working "fortress" site).

we already have elf,human,dwarven,goblin sites, kobolds were the last ones we needed, i mean, im sure he will work on them further, but we have them all now.
Unless you meant for dwarf mode. IM sure he will get to it eventually in taht case, and it already "understands" alot about them.

They are all quite interetsing to visit now.
Oh, I remember now. Underground civs (batmen, etc) are in an even worse temporary, buggy state than kobolds right now. They're the "last" ones. Underground probably needs a complete overhaul to get them right though.

The devnotes (older version) also muses on developing a more robust site system that can handle any kind of site. I guess at that point we can start looking for underwater civs, flying civs and stuff.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2311 on: August 22, 2017, 07:23:48 am »

All animal people civs, including the above ground ones, are in a basically non existent civ state currently, so that needs to be overhauled at some time. However, I'd expect humans to become (fortress) playable before that, as this is a prerequisite for fortress mode to exist in fully mundane worlds. Still, I wouldn't expect that to happen in the initial myth & magic major release (and for that reason I wouldn't expect fully mundane worlds in that release either). Animal people probably will be put on hold until customs etc. are fleshed out
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2312 on: August 22, 2017, 07:35:04 am »

Fleshed out animal people is one of the things mythgen will address according to...something Toady said some time ago.

Do animal people have their own entity right now like cavern dwellers? Not at my computer so don't recall.
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Ekaton

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2313 on: August 22, 2017, 10:11:26 am »

Is it planned to introduce some basic economy that would make civs choose what to buy and sell based on what they need and provide a steady growth? Can the game track all the goods in the world at least rudimentary?

Personally I find this idea interesting - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163691.0
Yes. Should be in the dev notes somewhere. But basically it's up next after mythgen and starting scenarios (politics and society) arcs. But maybe boats will come first.

So probably about 10 years from now, at least.

And it probably won't be 'basic'...

That idea described in "suggestions" is interesting because it could provide some basic elements first, elements that should be enough to make the world believable and realistic, without devoting that much time. I'm no professional programmer but perhaps Toady could provide something like described in that post while working on some other things before overhauling the economy entirely and making it very realistic, which seems to be the goal.
Why waste time on a placeholder when it's already planned? Just extends development for no real reason. There's a good chance that society and law updates will make any temporary system you put in now mostly obsolete. That's a year of work that gets thrown away.

Sure, I know nothing, but it's kind of hard to see Toady building up the motivation to do that when there's intersting things that still need developing (magic, boats, editor, etc). He's more likely just to work on economics simulations in his side projects until he gets somewhere near where he want df to be.

Such a placeholder could make the game feel realistic for the time being. Creating a proper economic system would be a chore and could well be the single most difficult thing to do to make DF a realistic world sim. Something along the lines I suggested would IMHO make the world more believable and its progression would make more sense.

When it comes to a real economy, just think how many things would need to be modeled:
1. Every single item would need to be present and tracked to really simulate trade, along with its supply and demand properly.
2. Entities would really need to appraise the value of an item according to their own needs. This might be tricky to do, but with a complex value/belief system of each character in the game it might not be that hard. Several examples:
2.1 If I need food and I have something of value, I am willing to sell it cheaper than I otherwise would. What's more, I will value it even less after some time when I'm starving and I would value it at almost nothing if I'm nearly dying.
2.2 Individual attachment can make a simple thing very valuable to a certain individual. An old shield with the coat of arms of an old kingdom might mean the world to a sentimental person who has once fought in its armies.
2.3 Even if an item is not in high demand in town A, it would have a higher value to a clever merchant who would try to purchase a lot of it.
2.4 A cunning merchant might make someone love an item they would otherwise not really want by using their emotions and making them value it a lot. Basically, as salespeople always say, you're not exactly selling an item, you're selling an emotion - like when selling someone a house, you make him fall in love with it by making him for example imagine how his kids would play there in the future. That's selling, and the real value doesn't even have to have much to do with it.
3. When it comes to resources, their price as it reflects the ratio of their usefulness/scarcity, would create a complex system of what materials are being used. If titanium is common, no one would keep using iron anymore. Also, entities that value their work more than combat should use their best materials to make tools first, unless they are threatened by another civ, in which case they will certainly need weapons and armor in the foreseeable future, which would make them value their weapons and armors more than tools, despite their beliefs.
4. The quality of goods could require a complex system. The quality of goods produced by each individual must be influenced by his civ's values, certain traditions, tracked inventions, perhaps the knowledge level of certain guilds, civ's attitude to knowledge and books which contain info on how to produce things, and finally on individual's characteristics and whether he had access to a mentor or not.
5. Usefulness of an item must be carefully tracked so that craftsdwarves know what to manufacture first. It is obvious that they will have to produce more farming tools than arms in the time of peace at least and civs' rulers might try to force them to stop producing everything but the most essential civil equipment and use contracts to buy a lot of arms.
6. The items must wear down so there is a need to replace them, and this needs to be tracked too.
7. Basically the game needs a complex system of contracts that make an individual want to produce a lot of expensive items as he expects payment. Also, how much an individual or civ ordering something can be trusted must be tracked too. Also, we need courts to resolve disputes which must happen, even if only because of the player not paying the craftsman.

Just my two cents on the issue. The world will never be complete without simulating those things, and those might not be that easy to simulate. If, however, Toady One manages to do all that, he will certainly be the first person in history to create such a complex and realistic system and who knows, maybe even economists would use it.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 10:15:29 am by Ekaton »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2314 on: August 22, 2017, 12:58:45 pm »

If I recall correctly, the entities structure doesn't contain above ground animal people, only the underground ones.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2315 on: August 22, 2017, 04:12:49 pm »

Is it planned to introduce some basic economy that would make civs choose what to buy and sell based on what they need and provide a steady growth? Can the game track all the goods in the world at least rudimentary?

Personally I find this idea interesting - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163691.0
Yes. Should be in the dev notes somewhere. But basically it's up next after mythgen and starting scenarios (politics and society) arcs. But maybe boats will come first.

So probably about 10 years from now, at least.

And it probably won't be 'basic'...

That idea described in "suggestions" is interesting because it could provide some basic elements first, elements that should be enough to make the world believable and realistic, without devoting that much time. I'm no professional programmer but perhaps Toady could provide something like described in that post while working on some other things before overhauling the economy entirely and making it very realistic, which seems to be the goal.
Why waste time on a placeholder when it's already planned? Just extends development for no real reason. There's a good chance that society and law updates will make any temporary system you put in now mostly obsolete. That's a year of work that gets thrown away.

Sure, I know nothing, but it's kind of hard to see Toady building up the motivation to do that when there's intersting things that still need developing (magic, boats, editor, etc). He's more likely just to work on economics simulations in his side projects until he gets somewhere near where he want df to be.

Such a placeholder could make the game feel realistic for the time being. Creating a proper economic system would be a chore and could well be the single most difficult thing to do to make DF a realistic world sim. Something along the lines I suggested would IMHO make the world more believable and its progression would make more sense.

When it comes to a real economy, just think how many things would need to be modeled:
1. Every single item would need to be present and tracked to really simulate trade, along with its supply and demand properly.
2. Entities would really need to appraise the value of an item according to their own needs. This might be tricky to do, but with a complex value/belief system of each character in the game it might not be that hard. Several examples:
2.1 If I need food and I have something of value, I am willing to sell it cheaper than I otherwise would. What's more, I will value it even less after some time when I'm starving and I would value it at almost nothing if I'm nearly dying.
2.2 Individual attachment can make a simple thing very valuable to a certain individual. An old shield with the coat of arms of an old kingdom might mean the world to a sentimental person who has once fought in its armies.
2.3 Even if an item is not in high demand in town A, it would have a higher value to a clever merchant who would try to purchase a lot of it.
2.4 A cunning merchant might make someone love an item they would otherwise not really want by using their emotions and making them value it a lot. Basically, as salespeople always say, you're not exactly selling an item, you're selling an emotion - like when selling someone a house, you make him fall in love with it by making him for example imagine how his kids would play there in the future. That's selling, and the real value doesn't even have to have much to do with it.
3. When it comes to resources, their price as it reflects the ratio of their usefulness/scarcity, would create a complex system of what materials are being used. If titanium is common, no one would keep using iron anymore. Also, entities that value their work more than combat should use their best materials to make tools first, unless they are threatened by another civ, in which case they will certainly need weapons and armor in the foreseeable future, which would make them value their weapons and armors more than tools, despite their beliefs.
4. The quality of goods could require a complex system. The quality of goods produced by each individual must be influenced by his civ's values, certain traditions, tracked inventions, perhaps the knowledge level of certain guilds, civ's attitude to knowledge and books which contain info on how to produce things, and finally on individual's characteristics and whether he had access to a mentor or not.
5. Usefulness of an item must be carefully tracked so that craftsdwarves know what to manufacture first. It is obvious that they will have to produce more farming tools than arms in the time of peace at least and civs' rulers might try to force them to stop producing everything but the most essential civil equipment and use contracts to buy a lot of arms.
6. The items must wear down so there is a need to replace them, and this needs to be tracked too.
7. Basically the game needs a complex system of contracts that make an individual want to produce a lot of expensive items as he expects payment. Also, how much an individual or civ ordering something can be trusted must be tracked too. Also, we need courts to resolve disputes which must happen, even if only because of the player not paying the craftsman.

Just my two cents on the issue. The world will never be complete without simulating those things, and those might not be that easy to simulate. If, however, Toady One manages to do all that, he will certainly be the first person in history to create such a complex and realistic system and who knows, maybe even economists would use it.
Nobody said the economy has to be a perfect system. It may well end up exactly as you say. But it's currently the 4th main feature planned after magic, law and boats (with some back and forth as to whether boats should come before or after).

The only thing that's not going to happen is to stop all current development and make a temporary economy that isn't the real economy that will be thrown away 3 updates from now. Makes no sense.

The game will be more realistic if he does that? Well, yeah, of course, along with everything else. It's not a fantasy world simulator without magic, it's not a fantasy world simulator without law & politics, it's not a fantasy world simulator without boats, it's not a fantasy world simulator without an economy. But Toady's one guy. He'll do it one step at a time.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2316 on: August 22, 2017, 08:51:41 pm »

Yes, when it comes to site support, there's much lower hanging fruit to harvest first, like elven, human, and goblin sites (kobold sites just got an overhaul, but as far as I understand, that's "only" for visiting purposes, not as a complete working "fortress" site).

we already have elf,human,dwarven,goblin sites, kobolds were the last ones we needed, i mean, im sure he will work on them further, but we have them all now.
Unless you meant for dwarf mode. IM sure he will get to it eventually in taht case, and it already "understands" alot about them.

They are all quite interetsing to visit now.
Oh, I remember now. Underground civs (batmen, etc) are in an even worse temporary, buggy state than kobolds right now. They're the "last" ones. Underground probably needs a complete overhaul to get them right though.

The devnotes (older version) also muses on developing a more robust site system that can handle any kind of site. I guess at that point we can start looking for underwater civs, flying civs and stuff.

Oh yeah, I forgot about those underground civs.yeah, they need work too, but don't they have little camps underground you can visit?  The kobolds in the currently released version don't even have that.
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Rockphed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2317 on: August 22, 2017, 09:22:38 pm »

Will a deity be able to create some sort of artifact book and pass it to some race?

Right now that is one of the methods that secrets get introduced into the world.  Well, the Deity creates a slab and people find it to discover the secrets of life and death.  Or whatever secrets you mod in.

For the current release, I am going to assume that Gods do not create other artifacts.  Aside from the secrets, the current world-gen artifacts will (unless I missed something) be limited to relics (i.e. parts of dead people), slabs, and the current dwarf artifact options.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2318 on: August 22, 2017, 09:27:36 pm »

Will a deity be able to create some sort of artifact book and pass it to some race?

Right now that is one of the methods that secrets get introduced into the world.  Well, the Deity creates a slab and people find it to discover the secrets of life and death.  Or whatever secrets you mod in.

For the current release, I am going to assume that Gods do not create other artifacts.  Aside from the secrets, the current world-gen artifacts will (unless I missed something) be limited to relics (i.e. parts of dead people), slabs, and the current dwarf artifact options.
And named weapons (and other named stuff if worldgen characters do that - Toady named his backpack in Adventurer...).
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Jairl

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2319 on: August 24, 2017, 05:30:55 pm »

Is it planned to introduce some basic economy that would make civs choose what to buy and sell based on what they need and provide a steady growth? Can the game track all the goods in the world at least rudimentary?

Personally I find this idea interesting - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163691.0
Yes. Should be in the dev notes somewhere. But basically it's up next after mythgen and starting scenarios (politics and society) arcs. But maybe boats will come first.

So probably about 10 years from now, at least.

And it probably won't be 'basic'...

That idea described in "suggestions" is interesting because it could provide some basic elements first, elements that should be enough to make the world believable and realistic, without devoting that much time. I'm no professional programmer but perhaps Toady could provide something like described in that post while working on some other things before overhauling the economy entirely and making it very realistic, which seems to be the goal.
Why waste time on a placeholder when it's already planned? Just extends development for no real reason. There's a good chance that society and law updates will make any temporary system you put in now mostly obsolete. That's a year of work that gets thrown away.

Sure, I know nothing, but it's kind of hard to see Toady building up the motivation to do that when there's intersting things that still need developing (magic, boats, editor, etc). He's more likely just to work on economics simulations in his side projects until he gets somewhere near where he want df to be.

Such a placeholder could make the game feel realistic for the time being. Creating a proper economic system would be a chore and could well be the single most difficult thing to do to make DF a realistic world sim. Something along the lines I suggested would IMHO make the world more believable and its progression would make more sense.

When it comes to a real economy, just think how many things would need to be modeled:
1. Every single item would need to be present and tracked to really simulate trade, along with its supply and demand properly.
2. Entities would really need to appraise the value of an item according to their own needs. This might be tricky to do, but with a complex value/belief system of each character in the game it might not be that hard. Several examples:
2.1 If I need food and I have something of value, I am willing to sell it cheaper than I otherwise would. What's more, I will value it even less after some time when I'm starving and I would value it at almost nothing if I'm nearly dying.
2.2 Individual attachment can make a simple thing very valuable to a certain individual. An old shield with the coat of arms of an old kingdom might mean the world to a sentimental person who has once fought in its armies.
2.3 Even if an item is not in high demand in town A, it would have a higher value to a clever merchant who would try to purchase a lot of it.
2.4 A cunning merchant might make someone love an item they would otherwise not really want by using their emotions and making them value it a lot. Basically, as salespeople always say, you're not exactly selling an item, you're selling an emotion - like when selling someone a house, you make him fall in love with it by making him for example imagine how his kids would play there in the future. That's selling, and the real value doesn't even have to have much to do with it.
3. When it comes to resources, their price as it reflects the ratio of their usefulness/scarcity, would create a complex system of what materials are being used. If titanium is common, no one would keep using iron anymore. Also, entities that value their work more than combat should use their best materials to make tools first, unless they are threatened by another civ, in which case they will certainly need weapons and armor in the foreseeable future, which would make them value their weapons and armors more than tools, despite their beliefs.
4. The quality of goods could require a complex system. The quality of goods produced by each individual must be influenced by his civ's values, certain traditions, tracked inventions, perhaps the knowledge level of certain guilds, civ's attitude to knowledge and books which contain info on how to produce things, and finally on individual's characteristics and whether he had access to a mentor or not.
5. Usefulness of an item must be carefully tracked so that craftsdwarves know what to manufacture first. It is obvious that they will have to produce more farming tools than arms in the time of peace at least and civs' rulers might try to force them to stop producing everything but the most essential civil equipment and use contracts to buy a lot of arms.
6. The items must wear down so there is a need to replace them, and this needs to be tracked too.
7. Basically the game needs a complex system of contracts that make an individual want to produce a lot of expensive items as he expects payment. Also, how much an individual or civ ordering something can be trusted must be tracked too. Also, we need courts to resolve disputes which must happen, even if only because of the player not paying the craftsman.

Just my two cents on the issue. The world will never be complete without simulating those things, and those might not be that easy to simulate. If, however, Toady One manages to do all that, he will certainly be the first person in history to create such a complex and realistic system and who knows, maybe even economists would use it.
Nobody said the economy has to be a perfect system. It may well end up exactly as you say. But it's currently the 4th main feature planned after magic, law and boats (with some back and forth as to whether boats should come before or after).

The only thing that's not going to happen is to stop all current development and make a temporary economy that isn't the real economy that will be thrown away 3 updates from now. Makes no sense.

The game will be more realistic if he does that? Well, yeah, of course, along with everything else. It's not a fantasy world simulator without magic, it's not a fantasy world simulator without law & politics, it's not a fantasy world simulator without boats, it's not a fantasy world simulator without an economy. But Toady's one guy. He'll do it one step at a time.


I think that it is also important to mention that the framework changes needed to accommodate a temporary system will cause problems of their own.

Additionally, you don't design REAL frameworks the same way you throw together prototypical code... and all the changes made will start trickling down into more sections of the code which then get dependent on things working the way they work now. The structure, the way things work and how you interact with the objects... especially when designing for performance... it's very important.

So basically the more systems you put in, the more integrated permanent systems built on temporary systems built on temporary systems get.


Yes, you can pay the cost later by shooting yourself in the head by maintaining numerous poorly maintained 'backwards compatibility' and otherwise hijacking the structure and randomly attaching processes to it until you get something so convoluted that you no longer can understand what any of the code is actually doing... but you still will have shot yourself in the head rather than working it out when all the other systems that would be used with the new system were in place.
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Ggobs

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2320 on: August 24, 2017, 07:24:08 pm »

Right now siege triggers are based on wealth of a fortress and population. After the next update what additional triggers will there be?

Will other civs send rescue parties for the prisoners we have of theirs?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2321 on: August 24, 2017, 08:23:35 pm »

Right now siege triggers are based on wealth of a fortress and population. After the next update what additional triggers will there be?

Will other civs send rescue parties for the prisoners we have of theirs?
Goblin siege triggers are based on population. Wealth triggers are set at 0, meaning inactive.
No additional triggers have been mentioned so far. But harassing a civ with squads will cause them to act like zombie sieges, ignore all the triggers, and attack you whenever they feel like it apparently.
"Active Season" also apparently will no longer effect siege timing.

There'll also be extra reasons to attack you besides 'we're goblins', 'you killed our merchants' and 'you cut down too many trees'. Now you'll be faced with armies turning up with claims to artifacts (because they genuinely belong to an entity, or just because their spies thought it looked cool).
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 08:34:25 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2322 on: August 24, 2017, 09:00:03 pm »

In the most recent dev log you mentioned prisoners, is imprisonment specific to goblin sites right now or do other civs do it aswell now in the coming version?

Can we rescue them in adventure mode?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 10:59:42 pm by Untrustedlife »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2323 on: August 24, 2017, 10:12:59 pm »

In the most recent dev log you mentioned prisoners, is imprisonment specific to goblin sites right now or do other civs do it aswell now?

Can we rescue them in adventure mode?

Human civs keep prisoners and slaves now, don't they?
At least, in worldgen. I've only ever run into them in Adventurer when they were fleeing down a street during an insurrection, so not sure if they have actual prisons. You can 'rescue' them if you find them.
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burned

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2324 on: August 25, 2017, 03:19:30 pm »

In the most recent dev log you mentioned prisoners, is imprisonment specific to goblin sites right now or do other civs do it aswell now?

Can we rescue them in adventure mode?

Human civs keep prisoners and slaves now, don't they?
At least, in worldgen. I've only ever run into them in Adventurer when they were fleeing down a street during an insurrection, so not sure if they have actual prisons. You can 'rescue' them if you find them.

I've only come across slaves in human towns in houses and once in a library, but whenever legends says that someone is a prisoner of a town - I can't find them. Maybe just bad luck or maybe they are in "hidden" (read abstract) jail cells, heh.
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