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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 705855 times)

ShinyandKittens

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2625 on: October 18, 2017, 02:00:47 pm »

1. Will we be getting an overhaul of the calendar, with procedurally generated per-word calendar systems? By this I mean two things - both the mechanics of time passage themself(for example worlds where seasons last several years, perhaps even decades, like ASOIAF, among the more mundane options) and the recording of the passage of time by sapient beings(e.g. a different number of months in a year, the division of time into "eras"(like in the TES universe), an explanation of when year 1 starts(where applicable), etc.)
2. How will spellbooks work? They're a staple of high fantasy and they'll obviously be included, but I see some problems with how to make them both fun and having them make sense. More specifically:

a) How will the generator handle the writing of spellbooks? Obviously this would require mages experimenting during worldgen and then writing their discoveries down, but how specifically are they going to experiment? A human might be able to see potentially interesting venues of further investigation, but how would a computer handle this?
b) Are spellbooks planned to be the one-spell-per-book variety, or the all-encompassing tomes with a bunch of spells contained? The first would be more fun(since it would require more exploration and learning new spells would be more rewarding) but would make far less sense(why, exactly, would a 2 step spell require an entire book about it?) while the second would be the other way around.
c) What would prevent worldgen mages from cluttering the world with 3000 books about the exact same spell?
d) What would prevent worldgen mages from simply discovering every spell there is on older worlds?
e) What would prevent spellbooks going around the world in massive numbers and making everyone a mage over time? If my character can read, what prevents me from simply learning a spell even if I'm not a mage(excluding spells that have prerequests, such as a bloodline or a faith in a god)?
f) Will there be spellbooks less about practical spells and more about interesting experiments that could further one's deeper understanding of the magic system?

Hope that isn't too much.


Answer to (c): likely a spell book cap, in which you can no longer make any more of a certain type
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2626 on: October 18, 2017, 04:22:41 pm »

1. Will we be getting an overhaul of the calendar, with procedurally generated per-word calendar systems? By this I mean two things - both the mechanics of time passage themself(for example worlds where seasons last several years, perhaps even decades, like ASOIAF, among the more mundane options) and the recording of the passage of time by sapient beings(e.g. a different number of months in a year, the division of time into "eras"(like in the TES universe), an explanation of when year 1 starts(where applicable), etc.)
2. How will spellbooks work? They're a staple of high fantasy and they'll obviously be included, but I see some problems with how to make them both fun and having them make sense. More specifically:

a) How will the generator handle the writing of spellbooks? Obviously this would require mages experimenting during worldgen and then writing their discoveries down, but how specifically are they going to experiment? A human might be able to see potentially interesting venues of further investigation, but how would a computer handle this?
b) Are spellbooks planned to be the one-spell-per-book variety, or the all-encompassing tomes with a bunch of spells contained? The first would be more fun(since it would require more exploration and learning new spells would be more rewarding) but would make far less sense(why, exactly, would a 2 step spell require an entire book about it?) while the second would be the other way around.
c) What would prevent worldgen mages from cluttering the world with 3000 books about the exact same spell?
d) What would prevent worldgen mages from simply discovering every spell there is on older worlds?
e) What would prevent spellbooks going around the world in massive numbers and making everyone a mage over time? If my character can read, what prevents me from simply learning a spell even if I'm not a mage(excluding spells that have prerequests, such as a bloodline or a faith in a god)?
f) Will there be spellbooks less about practical spells and more about interesting experiments that could further one's deeper understanding of the magic system?

Hope that isn't too much.

Well, firstly you're asking about the NEXT arc, not the one whose first release is nearing, so things are still quite a bit up in the air.
b. Single/limited number of uses magic items, such as runes, potions, crystal, etc. are common in fantasy, with some of them usable by anyone, some only by the creature they're given to, and some only by those with sufficient skill/knowledge to use them. What DF will implement remains to be seen, but they probably wouldn't be called spell books.
c. There are numerous reasons for why mages aren't mass producing spell books:
   - Trade secrets
   - Limited demand
   - There are much more interesting and profitable (in whatever currency is of interest to the mage) things to do for a skilled mage than cranking out spell books
   - ...
d. There is nothing in particular to prevent everything that's possible to research to have been researched in an old world. There is also nothing saying there won't be cataclysms that causes a new set of rules to come into play, adding to, subtracting from, or replacing some or all of the previous rules. The elimination of a god or containment of a sphere would probably affect any magic that has those as a source, while the birth, resurrection, or growing power of a "god" could introduce new rules.
e. Typically magic requires long and painstaking training and research, so a spell book would only provide meaningful information to people with the appropriate prerequisites (i.e. sufficient study of that branch of magic). Unless you've studied advanced math, the advanced math textbooks are nominally readable to you, but probably not particularly understandable, as they assume you already have acquired the underlying body of knowledge, like e.g. referring to proofs you're assumed to be familiar with, terms with a specific well defined meaning, etc. In addition to this, magic is often described as having verbal and somatic components, so you need to know the words, how they should be uttered, the required state of mind, and the appropriate gestures to successfully cast a spell. A skilled mage might be able to infer a lot from just a spell book together with a known body of knowledge to research/figure out how to cast a spell described, while the same spell book acts more as a reminder than a complete set of instructions to those who know the spell (possibly with the same kind of shorthand and omissions as reminder notes can have). Thus, everyone do not become mages for the same reason everyone isn't cobblers, carpenters, accountants, and engineers simultaneously in the real world: you have to concentrate on one profession, although you can be a dabbler at many, or have some as a hobby. Note, however, that this is just one case. There may be hyper magic worlds where everyone knows at least some simple magic, and there will most likely be other kinds of magic (bestowed by a powerful magic wielding more or less godlike creature/item/force, innate magic in certain races/animals/plants(?), etc.).
f. Magic research is very likely to be available in fortress mode (eventually). Whether research can be jump started or accelerated by acquired arcane research notes (I wouldn't call such works "spell books") remains to be seen, but it's not uncommon in fantasy for powerful creatures blocked from gaining access to our (fantasy) world use minions or other remote control methods to either open gates to let them through or spread information on how to open gates to lure fools into releasing them through the promise of power/riches/knowledge. You can also find examples of notes left behind by defeated enemies or powerful wizards of old being found or located.
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LulllberJack

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2627 on: October 21, 2017, 05:29:19 am »

Hello from Russian community of this game! Thank you for your work! We have some questions about this game:
Phoenix writes:
Question about magic release: will there be different types of magic?
Maxim Matvienco asks:
It seems like genetics is disable in current releases. If there are any plans of reworking it in nearest future? Would be nice to see some appearance tuples disabling/decreasing probablity of strange appearance combinations (something like black skin and copper hair). What about appearance prefrences? We already have favourite food, metals and animals, but no favorite eyes color etc. In other hand, standarts of beauty can be generated for each civilization separately during worldgen.
Second question: should we expect practical applying of scholar skills? Maybe something like discovereing "technological" secrets. For example: Optical engineer discovered secret of mirror or lense-making, which alows us to create them in glassmakers worksop (or u can just disable some already existing reations by default, so we require to discover them first)
Sergei Rybakov writes:
Are you planning to add ability to make cooperation for musicians in to musical groups, who will organize concerts and world group-tours? Will you add ability to sell fighters/mercenaries for short time? Are you planning to rise criminals among dwarves (vandalism, stealing, murdering, etc.)? Will you add poison plants, which can be identified by experienced planter (with small chance to no-distinction, of course)? Will you make sport competitions?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 02:50:22 pm by LulllberJack »
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KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2628 on: October 21, 2017, 05:31:26 am »

Hello from Russian community of this game! Thank you for your work! We have some questions about this game:
Phoenix writes:
Question about magic release: will there be different types of magic?


Definitely yes. Only Toady knows the specifics though.
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2629 on: October 21, 2017, 03:34:11 pm »

Magic will be procedurally generated. So yes, we will get many different varieties that will vary in nature from world to world.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 03:37:22 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2630 on: October 21, 2017, 11:58:05 pm »

What is the Manifestation, mentioned in the devlog?
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2631 on: October 22, 2017, 03:47:52 am »

What is the Manifestation, mentioned in the devlog?
I'm not sure where it was mentioned (I could have sworn it was a devlog, but apparently not), but its a debug tool-created creature.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2632 on: October 22, 2017, 01:19:58 pm »

Hello from Russian community of this game! Thank you for your work! We have some questions about this game:
Phoenix writes:
Question about magic release: will there be different types of magic?
Maxim Matvienco asks:
It seems like genetics is disable in current releases. If there are any plans of reworking it in nearest future? Would be nice to see some appearance tuples disabling/decreasing probablity of strange appearance combinations (something like black skin and copper hair). What about appearance prefrences? We already have favourite food, metals and animals, but no favorite eyes color etc. In other hand, standarts of beauty can be generated for each civilization separately during worldgen.
Second question: should we expect practical applying of scholar skills? Maybe something like discovereing "technological" secrets. For example: Optical engineer discovered secret of mirror or lense-making, which alows us to create them in glassmakers worksop (or u can just disable some already existing reations by default, so we require to discover them first)
Sergei Rybakov writes:
Are you planning to add ability to make cooperation for musicians in to musical groups, who will organize concerts and world group-tours? Will you add ability to sell fighters/mercenaries for short time? Are you planning to rise criminals among dwarves (vandalism, stealing, murdering, etc.)? Will you add poison plants, which can be identified by experienced planter (with small chance to no-distinction, of course)? Will you make sport competitions?

Здравствуйте

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AceSV

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2633 on: October 22, 2017, 08:10:30 pm »

How far off do think you are from a combat system upgrade?  There's a long list of things I've always wanted, like archer dwarves carrying side-arms, throwing weapons like javelin or shuriken, AI for multiple types of ranged weapons, AI not jumping off walls, hooked weapons, weapons that are good or bad at parrying, tip/base balance calculation, spiked shields, helmets that cover the face, gunpowder/explosives, construction-destroying siegers.  It's a lot of realistic stuff that I assume you want to do at some point, I'm curious how far away that kind of thing is on your to-do list. 
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KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2634 on: October 22, 2017, 10:02:09 pm »

How far off do think you are from a combat system upgrade?  There's a long list of things I've always wanted, like archer dwarves carrying side-arms, throwing weapons like javelin or shuriken, AI for multiple types of ranged weapons, AI not jumping off walls, hooked weapons, weapons that are good or bad at parrying, tip/base balance calculation, spiked shields, helmets that cover the face, gunpowder/explosives, construction-destroying siegers.  It's a lot of realistic stuff that I assume you want to do at some point, I'm curious how far away that kind of thing is on your to-do list. 

I'm not sure how Toady checks messages, but if it's a bot, use LIME green, not green.
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Japa

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2635 on: October 22, 2017, 10:05:03 pm »

It's not a bot. Toady just reads them himself.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2636 on: October 23, 2017, 02:46:54 am »

Either kind of green works as Toady notification, although lime green is the "official" notification color. If you read the answers you'll see that Toady makes references to forumite answers, so the color is most likely used to quickly find the actual questions when writing the answers.

A combat revamp is currently beyond the (sort of) scheduled horizon (Artifacts, Myth & Magic * X [looking at the dev page, M&M consists of 5 sections, all but one with more bullets than the whole of the Artifacts arc, so it won't all fit in one arc], and Starting Scenarios arcs).
It also seems multi tile machinery (e.g. boats) and economy revival are closer to the horizon than a combat revamp.
However, the schedule can be reshuffled due to e.g. side project influences or discovered needs for infrastructure support for things that are scheduled.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2637 on: October 23, 2017, 04:30:28 am »

I imagine little bits of combat updating will appear from time to time during each release. Taverns doesn't appear combat related but still saw force, helmet removal and proper armor for invaders added at the end. But yeah, a specifically combat focussed update seems a long way off.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2638 on: October 23, 2017, 05:51:37 am »

Take mounting a creature for instance, its feasable right now since outside civs realise how to do it (and suspiciously get better configs on what creatures to choose in the artifact update) and it can be pseudo done in arena mode, not least its been prototyped since forever there's not a lot holding back Toady slipping it into a update one of these days.

Item degredation like Shonai says was out of the blue entirely.


« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 06:20:01 am by FantasticDorf »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2639 on: October 23, 2017, 05:58:48 am »

Well, technically dwarves use mounts as well, it's only that they forget how to ride when they become children, and the mounts are restricted to mothers ;)
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