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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 902902 times)

Urlance Woolsbane

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2745 on: November 13, 2017, 11:14:20 pm »

Of course, that was also a bug as, ethically, only Elf adventurers should have been able to feast on their sapient buddies (and goblin civ goblins if you modded them in).
I've never bought that line of reasoning. You can do all other manner of atrocious things in Adventure Mode, in defiance not only of your civ's ethics, but of your character's beliefs. The game treats you, in essence, as a possessing spirit, leaving your poor puppet the freedom only to weep. Granted, future releases may penalize you for breaking character, but I doubt Toady intends to outright stop you from doing so.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2746 on: November 13, 2017, 11:19:30 pm »

Also I think Elven ethics only approve of eating what you've killed.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2747 on: November 14, 2017, 12:08:41 am »

Also I think Elven ethics only approve of eating what you've killed.
Yeah. Although, there aren't any ethics regarding eating non-kills, are there? So I guess it's OK for a dorf to eat a friend who 'accidentally' fell out of a tree.

--edit
Oh wait, my mistake. Eat_sapient_other is a thing. What do Elves have there?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 12:10:13 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2748 on: November 14, 2017, 12:17:02 am »

[ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:UNTHINKABLE]
[ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:ACCEPTABLE]

So they would actually really object to, say, farming mermaids and eating their delicious flesh that way. ONLY what you kill.

For comparison, Dwarves, Humans, Kobolds, and Animal People all find eating sapients Unthinkable, while Goblins merely find it a Personal Matter. So overall not a lot of support for maneating here.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 12:20:06 am by Egan_BW »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2749 on: November 14, 2017, 12:34:36 am »

I'd like to see a cannibalism ethics tag added to this. It's quite different cooking a delicious troll stew than chewing on a fellow halfling's hairy feet.

Well, I think so anyhow...
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Urlance Woolsbane

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2750 on: November 14, 2017, 04:18:35 am »

I'd like to see a cannibalism ethics tag added to this. It's quite different cooking a delicious troll stew than chewing on a fellow halfling's hairy feet.
I think this should instead be an interpolation of the presently existing EAT_SAPIENT tag and a putative one governing whether other races are seen as sapient.
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ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2751 on: November 14, 2017, 05:29:16 am »

Actually the sapient parts being unusable is a bug or atleast not intended, since it applies to adventure mode as well to adventurers that shouldn't care about dwarven ethics. In 40.xx you could easily butcher a human or goblin corpse as any race and just plain eat its meat - in the current one you cannot.
Of course, that was also a bug as, ethically, only Elf adventurers should have been able to feast on their sapient buddies (and goblin civ goblins if you modded them in).
I do not see at all how that was a bug - like what Urlance Woolsbane said, you can be someone completely atrocious going against all of your civs ethics, I don't see why cannibalism would be different.

FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2752 on: November 14, 2017, 07:46:12 am »

I'd like to see a cannibalism ethics tag added to this. It's quite different cooking a delicious troll stew than chewing on a fellow halfling's hairy feet.
I think this should instead be an interpolation of the presently existing EAT_SAPIENT tag and a putative one governing whether other races are seen as sapient.

Reasonable, throwing it out onto a suggestion thread might get more visibility however. Stuff like that will probably be planned anyway by the time we get closer to civs forbidding the hunting/killing of particular creatures which toady has mentioned a few times.

So it'd be [ETHIC:KILL_ANIMAL:ACCEPTABLE] with a subset saying X animal or animal class/tag class is "Unthinkable"
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MachinaMandala

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2753 on: November 14, 2017, 01:13:02 pm »

In the new version coming up, strange moods are tracked in world generation. Does it only apply to civilizations or could I, say, give gnomes the ability to have strange moods and therefore have non-civ creatures creating artifacts?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 03:37:17 pm by MachinaMandala »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2754 on: November 14, 2017, 02:26:39 pm »

In the new version coming up, strange moods are tracked in world generation. Does it only apply to civilizations or could I, say, give gnomes the ability to have strange moods and therefore have non-civ creatures creating artifacts?
The convention is to use (lime) green to indicate questions to Toady so he can find then among the chaff (like this post) when answering.

Currently the mood tag is attached to the dwarven race/civ template only. Since there is little reason to assume that will change in the upcoming release, strange moods will probably remain restricted to dwarves (and moddable to civs only). The new artifacts will presumably be created using processes different from strange moods, and these processes will probably be more directed than the random dwarven moods (humies wouldn't take just any dead priest to hack up into relics, for instance, and gods would probably have some kind of reason for bestowing an artifact on someone, regardless of whether they did the job themselves or provided divine inspiration for someone).
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MachinaMandala

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2755 on: November 14, 2017, 03:37:50 pm »

The convention is to use (lime) green to indicate questions to Toady so he can find then among the chaff (like this post) when answering.

Currently the mood tag is attached to the dwarven race/civ template only. Since there is little reason to assume that will change in the upcoming release, strange moods will probably remain restricted to dwarves (and moddable to civs only). The new artifacts will presumably be created using processes different from strange moods, and these processes will probably be more directed than the random dwarven moods (humies wouldn't take just any dead priest to hack up into relics, for instance, and gods would probably have some kind of reason for bestowing an artifact on someone, regardless of whether they did the job themselves or provided divine inspiration for someone).

Thanks, fixed!

Strange moods are currently a creature-level token, hence why I ask about giving it to non-civ creatures.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2756 on: November 15, 2017, 01:30:11 am »

So thats two of the oracles questions seen answered?
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2757 on: November 15, 2017, 04:51:13 am »

With the current split between body and soul, and upcoming features regarding this, when will a being count as dead? When their original body dies? When their current body dies? When their "core body" dies (if it's some kind of hive-mind creature)? Or, if the being could survive without a body (i.e. some body-possessing spirit), when their soul is banished or destroyed in some way? Will beings whose souls reside in items die when the item is destroyed?

FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2758 on: November 15, 2017, 09:57:36 am »

You will have to get a screenshot of this yourself but the whole (what happens after you're dead afterlife wise & mechanics) were already partially spoken about in Toady's mythgeneration talks, ontop of the sliders determining things like whether it is actually possible to permanently die in a perfect world versus a very much horrifying world (basically Beserkę) with rampant things killing you & being killed.

Also your question isn't exactly concise to start with, and your methods you suggest of remaining after you've died could possibly be held inside a suggestion thread to be filled out with detail on how it affects the game rather than remain assumptive in trying to cover too many points of the same topic here, as i don't think Toady will be able to reply in entirety to all presented in lime green at once. Though i've gone to the courtesy to snip out the relevant bits presentably.

Quote from: volilol's questions
With the current split between body and soul: when will a being count as dead? (In both respects? utterly destroyed? little unclear here, though previously you went over things like being able to operate one without the other by different means or said relationship being unimportant)

Will beings whose souls reside in items die when the item is destroyed?

I think Toady's addressed destroying artifacts to have some sort of effect and remarked that would actually require the ability to destroy them through currently unobtainable means so is off the table short term until the magic arc, though you might have to do a bit of digging to verify that, ill quote it if i find it later.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 10:00:19 am by FantasticDorf »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2759 on: November 16, 2017, 12:04:38 am »

On the off chance that there's no release this month...

Goblins accepted a human civ beast hunter identity? Does that mean they're no longer automatic Kill_Neutral:required? Or are beast hunters welcome everywhere (like bards) so get a free pass to wander around the pits?

Oh wait, perhaps it was "I'm a human beast hunter from [goblin_civ_name]". That would work...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 12:07:10 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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