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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 696108 times)

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8175 on: October 21, 2016, 09:00:16 pm »

The fact was that they allowed you in to do the same thing recently. Equality doesn't work like you think it works.

The OSCE has been monitoring elections, but this next election represents a 10 x expansion to 400+. Up until this next election there has been less than 1 observer per state.

Look, if you accused someone of trying to meddle in your elections, would you allow the meddlers to observe or monitor or whatever for fraud? Because THAT is the position we are coming from. I know Ukraine did, for Donetsk at least, but they couldn't control that one.

All the bad shit that we did in the past has no relevance to what is going on right now.

But I think the thing with the Russians is that you guys were all over their polls in September. I don't like the Russians but I could understand being pissed if another country was that patronizing, "we can see yours, but fuck off you can't see ours".

Hey, come on, if they hadn't tried to mess around with our election, then perhaps it would have been fine. Did we mess with Russias elections? no
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 09:05:26 pm by smjjames »
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Criptfeind

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8176 on: October 21, 2016, 09:05:11 pm »

But I think the thing with the Russians is that you guys were all over their polls in September.

Was Russia actively accusing the USA of tampering in their elections in September? Because. Uh. If not, sorta a false equivalency... And if so, they really shouldn't have let us in then.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8177 on: October 21, 2016, 09:06:56 pm »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/the-us-has-been-meddling-in-other-countries-elections-for-a-century-it-doesnt-feel-good_us_57983b85e4b02d5d5ed382bd

Well your current leading candidate is directly implicated in doing exactly what you say we should forget about because it's in the past. It's 100% relevant.

Quote
Emails that have since surfaced show that Clinton and her team worked behind the scenes to fend off efforts by neighboring democracies through the Organization of American States to restore the elected president <of Honduras> to power. “The OAS meeting today turned into a non-event ― just as we hoped,” wrote one top State official, celebrating a strategy of slow-walking a restoration.

So you have Hillary Clinton directly running an operation where they publicly supported a coup-government and worked against international efforts to restore the elected president of another nation. Kinda relevant when that exact person is the leading candidate and "lesser of two evils".
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 09:10:34 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8178 on: October 21, 2016, 09:09:18 pm »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/the-us-has-been-meddling-in-other-countries-elections-for-a-century-it-doesnt-feel-good_us_57983b85e4b02d5d5ed382bd

Well your current leading candidate is directly implicated in doing exactly what you say we should forget about because it's in the past. It's 100% relevant.

So we're getting a taste of our own medicine, fine, but that doesn't mean we have to oblige with Russa.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 09:14:41 pm by smjjames »
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8179 on: October 21, 2016, 09:12:51 pm »

I disagree on that. I think it's dangerous to pick and choose how transparency works. USA has access to Russian elections, but then refuses to allow Russian access to USA elections. That's just not a workable system, it's unilateralism, rather than international cooperation based on agreements. It actually makes little difference if you don't like a particular country: when you're treating each other as equals sometimes you have to reciprocate even if you don't want to.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 09:14:27 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8180 on: October 21, 2016, 09:14:19 pm »

I disagree on that. I think it's dangerous to pick and choose how transparency works. USA has access to Russian elections, but then refuses to allow Russian access to USA elections. That's just not a workable system.

Well, if they really wanted to, maybe they shouldn't have started pulling the shit that they did.


Quote
Emails that have since surfaced show that Clinton and her team worked behind the scenes to fend off efforts by neighboring democracies through the Organization of American States to restore the elected president <of Honduras> to power. “The OAS meeting today turned into a non-event ― just as we hoped,” wrote one top State official, celebrating a strategy of slow-walking a restoration.

So you have Hillary Clinton directly running an operation where they publicly supported a coup-government and worked against international efforts to restore the elected president of another nation. Kinda relevant when that exact person is the leading candidate and "lesser of two evils".

Do you think Trump would be any better? That's not a rhetorical question btw.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8181 on: October 21, 2016, 09:15:23 pm »

Seriously though, what's the point? You say we did electioneering rigging in the past, and people ask why we should allow Russia to do it to us since it's so shitty, so you say that Russia let us observe their elections, and we say that it's different because Russia is actively trying to influnce our election, to which you respond by saying we did such things in the past. You're just dancing around in a circle (the post two posts above mine is the start of the third cycle of this  ::)) as people ask why you think... Whatever it is you actually think.

Other then "The USA fucking sucks" what are you actually advocating for?
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8182 on: October 21, 2016, 09:22:09 pm »

So, the US did some shitty things regarding elections in other countries in the past. Why should we let Russia do shitty things to our election now?

Exactly.

Ever heard of the saying 'It takes a thief to know a thief.'?, so, Reelya, have you thought that perhaps we recognize what Russia themselves are trying to do and are denying them the opportunity?
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8183 on: October 21, 2016, 09:23:24 pm »

I didn't say anything about allowing Russia to rig elections.

I said that you guys were allowed to monitor their recent elections, and it's fair that they get access to.

After all, all those Republican-linked Trump guys were over in Russia and Ukraine until recently, backing specific political candidates. Doesn't that sound a bit like Americans influencing Russia/Ukraine politics to you? It does, if you look at the big picture. After all if a bunch of Russians were directly in America backing a candidate how would America not see that as Russia rigging things. But somehow you can't see Americans in Russia twiddling on the strings of power as being the exact same deal?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 09:26:30 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8184 on: October 21, 2016, 09:26:07 pm »

edit: Dangit Reelya, I removed the quote to respond to your edit, then you edit it again. lol
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 09:27:53 pm by smjjames »
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8185 on: October 21, 2016, 09:28:13 pm »

You said it wasn't American influence, because Manafort was hired by Viktor Yanukovych?

I seriously don't think you'd use that argument if the scenario was reversed. Hell, Manafort merely having been in the same room as a Russian is said to represent undue Russian influence on Trump's election.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 09:30:49 pm by Reelya »
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Criptfeind

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8186 on: October 21, 2016, 09:28:39 pm »

I said that you guys were allowed to monitor their recent elections, and it's fair that they get access to.

Except Russia is actively trying to influence the election. So. No. It's not 'fair'.

Anyway, I'm not sure if that counts as just the second part of the third cycle, or that and the first part of the fourth cycle, we're getting a bit out of order here.
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Wolfhunter107

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8187 on: October 21, 2016, 09:31:39 pm »

No, because the Ukrainian government had hired him to do so. He did so as a private citizen, and in secret to boot. and it doesn't matter that he's affiliated with the Republican establishment, because the Republican establishment is not the US government. So no, it doesn't sound like the US influencing the elections at all, and the fact that you're trying to imply that at all is utterly ridiculous.
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Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8188 on: October 21, 2016, 09:32:19 pm »

Hacking things, trying to influence the overall narrative with false stories, is a bit different than "here's some Russian dudes who are totally going to help me campaign" and I think people are mad about stuff like stories being discovered as Russian-originating fabrications and still winding up in Trump's twitmouth thing.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8189 on: October 21, 2016, 09:32:41 pm »

Well don't get upset when Americans are barred from observing Russian elections then, which is the obvious outcome. And I stand by what I said about Americans influencing Russian politics. There were enough Americans over there, all of whom seem Republican-linked and all of whom support one side of Russian politics.

That might be more of what this hacking thing is about. Party links and alliances have gone global. Putin is pretty far to the right, and he has a number of links to the American right. Basically seeing this in Cold War terms of nation vs nation might be out-dated. It's the international political right vs the international liberal mainstream.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 09:37:20 pm by Reelya »
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