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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 696284 times)

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8190 on: October 21, 2016, 09:32:53 pm »

I didn't say anything about allowing Russia to rig elections.

I said that you guys were allowed to monitor their recent elections, and it's fair that they get access to.

After all, all those Republican-linked Trump guys were over in Russia and Ukraine until recently, backing specific political candidates. Doesn't that sound a bit like Americans influencing Russia/Ukraine politics to you? It does, if you look at the big picture. After all if a bunch of Russians were directly in America backing a candidate how would America not see that as Russia rigging things. But somehow you can't see Americans in Russia twiddling on the strings of power as being the exact same deal?

I do know Yanukovich hired Paul Manafort, but I don't know the background of it. Yes, it seems a bit like US influencing the election, but that wasn't state backed as far as I know.

Also, laws vary from country to country, Poroshenko hired a governor that was formerly from (the country of) Georgia.

I said that you guys were allowed to monitor their recent elections, and it's fair that they get access to.

Except Russia is actively trying to influence the election. So. No. It's not 'fair'.

Anyway, I'm not sure if that counts as just the second part of the third cycle, or that and the first part of the fourth cycle, we're getting a bit out of order here.

I think we're in the fourth cycle, or maybe in the third one still.

But yes, this circular argument is stupid. Also, who the heck hasn't tried to influence someone elses politics at some point.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8191 on: October 21, 2016, 09:36:03 pm »

Well don't get upset when Americans are barred from observing Russian elections then, which is the obvious outcome. And I stand by what I said about Americans influencing Russian politics. There were enough Americans over there, all of whom seem Republican-linked and all of whom support one side of Russian politics.

To echo wolfhunter The Republicans ARE NOT the whole government, and Manafort did it as a private citizen.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 09:38:12 pm by smjjames »
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Criptfeind

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8192 on: October 21, 2016, 09:38:34 pm »

Well don't get upset when Americans are barred from observing Russian elections then, which is the obvious outcome.

I'm going to go ahead and reserve the right to be generally in favor of democracy and shit instead of relying on a ridiculous tit for tat system were past offenses are an endless justification for future abuse.

I think we're in the fourth cycle, or maybe in the third one still.

We're well and truly in the fourth cycle, but it seems like we've got stuck in the first half and are having issues closing it.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8193 on: October 21, 2016, 09:39:55 pm »

IDK if you'd make that "party" vs "government" distinction so strongly when it's the other guy doing it.

Manafort has been an advisor to no less than three US Republican presidents.

Wolfhunter107

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8194 on: October 21, 2016, 09:40:34 pm »

. And I stand by what I said about Americans influencing Russian politics. There were enough Americans over there, all of whom seem Republican-linked and all of whom support one side of Russian politics.

Again, private American citizens are not the U.S. government. There's a huge gulf between an American supporting anti-Putin groups and Russia trying to undermine the legitimacy of the US elections.

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penguinofhonor

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8195 on: October 21, 2016, 09:42:02 pm »

Do we know that the meddling is the Russian government and not just private citizens?
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Wolfhunter107

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8196 on: October 21, 2016, 09:43:00 pm »

IDK if you'd make that "party" vs "government" distinction so strongly when it's the other guy doing it.

Manafort has been an advisor to no less than three US Republican presidents.

So? He wasn't part of the US government when they hired him, and I doubt that the Obama administration would be working against its own interests like that.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8197 on: October 21, 2016, 09:43:38 pm »

"Russia" as a country isn't trying to do that. It would be Putin's party. That's what I'm saying about how you're drawing distinctions inconsistently.

Manafort is a guy with a history of working strongly with US Republican presidents, including Ford, Reagan and Bush's dad. He was over in Eastern Europe coordinating elections for the far-right during the Bush Jnr years, but I'll bet you he had very close contacts in the Bush Administration. And you can't say that the Bush Administration was shy about using the levers of power available to it for political gain.

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8198 on: October 21, 2016, 09:44:11 pm »

Do we know that the meddling is the Russian government and not just private citizens?

We don't know with 100% absolute certainity that Putin is calling the shots here, but our Intel services see the work of Russian spies, which implies that the Government is backing this in some way.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 09:49:10 pm by smjjames »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8199 on: October 21, 2016, 09:45:57 pm »

"Russia" as a country isn't trying to do that. It would be Putin's party. That's what I'm saying about how you're drawing distinctions inconsistently.

Is that the source of the problem you're having? Russia as a whole as a country vs the Russian Government?

I may be misunderstanding something here, and why did I double post.....
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Wolfhunter107

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8200 on: October 21, 2016, 09:46:47 pm »

And why would the Bush administration work against its own interests? Your theory not only has no evidence, it doesn't even make sense.
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Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8201 on: October 21, 2016, 09:54:42 pm »

It's always interesting seeing people realize that the Democratic and Republican parties are not actually part of the government, because it feels so weird when you think about it.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8202 on: October 21, 2016, 09:54:57 pm »

Quote
"Russia" as a country isn't trying to do that. It would be Putin's party. That's what I'm saying about how you're drawing distinctions inconsistently.

Is that the source of the problem you're having? Russia as a whole as a country vs the Russian Government?

I may be misunderstanding something here, and why did I double post.....

My point was that people are being very specific when talking about how America influenced Russia, but talking in blanket terms when it's the other way around.

After all, Manafort isn't just "a guy, who happens to be American" he was an influential Republican, over in Eastern Europe during the Republican Bush administration, influencing elections.

If that was the other way around, some old pal of Putin's directly advising Trump, you definitely wouldn't dismiss him as a "just a Russian guy minding his own business".

Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8203 on: October 21, 2016, 09:57:06 pm »

I mean. That's manafort, too, by and large. Lotta' people kinda' seem to do just that. Or at least what you had before. Maybe it won't change again, I'unno.
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sluissa

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #8204 on: October 21, 2016, 09:59:45 pm »

I'm going to side with Reelya here. If everything really is above board, what's the harm in letting them come in to look around? As everyone keeps saying, the whole system is so decentralized it would be impossible to influence in any meaningful way from an individual or even a small group standpoint.

If Russia is using this as a PR stunt, then it's a lose lose either way. Either you let them in to watch, and then they go back later saying "It was all rigged." or you bar them from observing and they respond with "Well, how can we trust you if you won't let us watch?" Assuming there are other observers and they come up with the conclusion that everything is fine. Letting them in and letting them say dumb stuff like it was rigged and ruin their own reputation is the better option.

This endless posturing is not what I want to see. Let's be the better person here. Clinton keeps saying she takes the high road? Well prove it. Don't take us another step into another cold war.
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