Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Reelya]

Likewise if a man is being harassed and abused by a woman... it only means the woman loves him. The man should tolerate the woman's physical and emotional abuse and instead endeavor to make the woman feel even better about herself.

Well that's really reflecting society. There was that experiment they did with male/female actors hitting each other as a mock couple in a public park.

When it was the male hitting the female, intervention was really fast, standard "protect the woman".

When it was the female hitting the male, people cheered, laughed etc. And when questioned a few of the more concerned people did try and rationalize it as "i was worried about them / escalation". i.e. read between the lines, they didn't care about the man being hit, but were worried he might hit her back.

They interviewed a few people afterwards and their justifications were things like "maybe he was cheating on her" which apparently justifies delivering a beating. But of course imagine if you suggested that as a "valid" reason for a man physically assaulting a woman.

[Neonivek]

Yeah but TV shows shouldn't be pushing the worst aspects of society except to maybe lampoon them. Well at least when a show is trying to "teach a lesson to children" lesson a day shows.

Like Hey Arnold often had characters do really dumb, harmful, or mean things that often were considered A-OK... but the show never framed it that way.

[Reelya]

the writers are immersed in this whole culture and just haven't thought through the implications.

A lot of ordinary people do think a woman hitting a man because he displeased her is in fact socially acceptable behavior.

[Neonivek]

the writers are immersed in this whole culture and just haven't thought through the implications.

Ohh yeah I forgot this whole thing where Writers are always 20 years or more behind the times.

Which is why we just passed the "Bullies actually have low self-esteem" phase... AND the "If you stand up to a bully they will back down" phase.

So right now we are still in the mental age of the 1990s-1980s or further.

[Reelya]

Yeah, bullies have moved on to "they will cyberbully you until you commit suicide by spreading fake rumors on social media". How are cartoons preparing kids for that then?

And the "stand up to bullies" thing is not always good advice anyway. I got bullied at school because I was a geek and a racial minority. And this included incidents when my entire class including people who were supposed to be my friends joined in beating me up when I was 12. This happened when the teacher was out of the room. The "cartoon advice" is bullshit for dealing with something like that.

It's feel-good advice to believe there's a simple solution that a "can-do attitude" from the bullied kid themselves will fix. And it borders on "victim blaming". Because if you saw the cartoon and you're still being bullied, why haven't you learned yet to stand up to the bullies?

[Helgoland]

You no longer are a member of a racial minority? :p


(Also, PTW.)

[Neonivek]

DAAAAAAAAAAANG IT!!! Ok...

So have you ever seen something that you just knew wouldn't satisfy you or wasn't all that good... But it hits you in like your psychological weak point to the point where it is basically irresistible?

Dusk City Outlaws is that...

No real character creation (essentially a lot like 5e character creation -_-) and the rules are VERY scant with the total being less than 100 pages... Meaning this is a rather boardgame type game.

But a Heist game where the majority of the gameplay is the set up where everything comes together at the end?

AND that isn't about an immediate insurmountable challenge but complications that arise along the way? Those complications being that everyone talks and the build up of "heat" along the way?

Goodness I know it is bad, but it is soo tempting. It is basically EXACTLY what I want to run as a GM...

It is the Pen and Paper RPG version of Youtuber Life! (don't play it... it is REALLY bad)

---

Anyone else ever been put in a similar position? You know it is bad, there is no way it is good... But it says everything you want to hear.

[Reelya]

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/02/the-mind-behinddusk-city-outlawstells-us-about-the-intricacies-of-tabletop-game-design/

Over the course of several day and night segments, the players go out into the city to gather resources, take out obstacles to their success, and otherwise prep to pull off the plan. During the session's final scene, the players put their plan into motion

It sort of sounds like Liberal Crime Squad: the RPG Boardgame.

[TheBiggerFish]

...Huh.

[Reelya]

BTW - I don't think it sounds bad at all. It lacks detailed character generation and dice rolling, but that's not "bad", it's just different. Not every narrative-based tabletop game has to involve generation complex data sheets of dice rolls and skill selections. In fact, someone could say that that whole thing actually sucks because all those dumb rules get in the way of storytelling. In fact, all that dice rolling and combat mechanics to me is the biggest drag about D&D. I don't really want to sit there for 40+ minutes rolling some dice while we work out how much damage we took to kill a bunch of goblins.

So with a tabletop game like "Dusk City Outlaws" you seem to be labeling it "bad" because it lacks D&D 5e's character creation system. Well why should every tabletop game have to have a complex rules-based character creation system? They're actually over-rated in how much they add to the narrative component. We should always check that we're labeling something as good or bad on it's merits and not trying to shoehorn it into being something it's not trying to be.

Dusk City Outlaws is meant to be a game that a group can pick off the shelf, the one boxed set contains all the play materials, and the game is quick to set up and fun to play in a single session. The features you're complaining about it lacking would in fact fuck up the entire concept of the game. No, the game would not be "better" if they added a complex character creation system which would take half an hour for everyone to roll up characters and they had to make character sheets. It would in fact be worse.

[Neonivek]

Bad for me
-Though my mistake for not being specific.

But there is rolling and skills. In fact bonus points EVERYONE has 50% skill in all the skills minimum. So the way the game uses skills isn't an issue with me at all.

As well I DEFINED this as having 5e character creation, not lacking it.

At least I HOPE I said that... Because that was the biggest drag about dungeons and dragons 5e. Which is a shame because it has a lot going for it.
-In fact... it is the only thing to me holding 5e back.

Well why should every tabletop game have to have a complex rules-based character creation system?

It has a lot to do with the ownership of your character and how much you can really personalize them.

In the game there are exactly two choices you can make outside Typical story/gender/fluff (and the fluff has some mechanical aspect. The GM is supposed to reward playing in line with your character motivations). You can chose the Cartel you are part of, and you can chose your "class". That is as far as you get to do it.

Now, saying that... This game once again throws me through a loop because what is there for Cartel and Classes is a LOT better defined then most games.

What is this Cartel, what can it do for me, what exactly is my relationship with them? Defined. You don't have to do EXACTLY what they write... But in real life I know exactly what I can call the police for... in most RPGs they would probably define the police as "For dire emergencies, they arrest people. They moderately like you".

And the Classes are VERY well balanced for exactly what you are meant to be doing AND have abilities.

In fact even the vague aspects of the characters... I have absolutely no problem with. There is absolutely NO roll required for an Alchemist to make something it is always assumed they can, that they have the materials, and have enough time to make it BEFORE going out... And what it can do is wide indeed. It could use a few examples, but otherwise excellent!

Yet... You can't... make your own character...

DAMN YOU DUSK CITY OUTLAWS!

if they added a complex character creation system which would take half an hour for everyone to roll up characters and they had to make character sheets. It would in fact be worse.

Ehh alternate rules.

Though to admit... "I" am a DM...

I have the ability to let people add skills in addition to the ones defined by their class. To admit... the issue is that... people would just get the skills they lack and it would kind of boring up the characters (Ohh look, everyone can fight... and dodge). Which is a shame because you REALLY don't have to have everyone combat capable...

[Reelya]

It sounds more heavy on the roleplaying less on the rules for creating your own character.

But then again you might as well say original D&D didn't let you make your own character, as you had to choose a class.

So what are we saying? People have got to the point that unless there are 47 different rulebooks full of tables and modular rules additions for your character you "can't make your own character" now?

[Neonivek]

What it sounds like you're saying is you want a complex modular table-based character generation system. And that's something that would be completely at odds with the play experience they're going for here.

Naw... All it needs in my mind is the ability to select your 10 skills... or maybe 5 of the 10.

[Reelya]

I don't think so, this game is meant to be fast to set up and get a group going. If you did that then people woud spend 40 minutes arguing about who's getting what skills even before they know what the job is.

And the point of a job is that everyone has well-defined roles. e.g. safe crackers and lockpickers. If you let people mix and match skills then people are going to make jack of all trade characters and there's going to be too much overlap. It's much better to just pick roles.

[Neonivek]

I don't think so, this game is meant to be fast to set up and get a group going. If you did that then people woud spend 40 minutes arguing about who's getting what skills even before they know what the job is.

Ohh didn't you know? They want to implement that too!