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[TheBiggerFish]

I must admit I have no advice to give, but I'm here for moral support.

[NullForceOmega]

If you have lived a life that has never required you to use physical force against someone I envy you, however you shouldn't try to disregard human physical and psychological evolution in the way your statement indicates.  There are times that violence is in fact the only solution to a problem, and our minds and bodies have developed with that in mind.  Calling people cavemen for responding in the way nature programmed them is very denigrating, try to remember that 'civility' is a mask we wear to interact with people in a way the helps avoid violence, it doesn't make it go away.

The thing is it's not a not situation where violence is the only answer that is being discussed. The discussion is about escalating a non-violent situation into a violent one.

I don't believe calling a violent person a "caveman" is unjustified. I'm not going to feel bad for ostracizing someone who "acts in the way nature programmed them". Pulling the human nature card is really just a cop-out used by people who can't control themselves properly.

Again, I'm glad that you've never had to use violence against someone in your life.  But don't assume that you are automatically better than someone who has.  Violence is just a component of how we interact with the world, and all the good feelings and 'control yourself' in existence won't change that.  Insulting someone for having a normal response to a situation outside of their control is an excellent way to contribute to their problem, so by all means, the next time you see someone being violent call them a caveman and shun them, see where it gets you.

Further, I am not specifically advocating violence in this case, I am trying to inform OP as to what 'standing up for yourself' actually means, which is to aggressively (though not specifically violently) hold your position on a subject.  Rather like I am doing now.

[ChairmanPoo]

the next time you see someone being violent call them a caveman and shun them, see where it gets you.

The next time I'll see someone being violent I'll call the police on them, because cavemen have no place in society. The problem of violent people are themselves, and indeed poor impulse control is more likely to lead them to a bad end. There's a reason why borderline personality disorder sufferers tend to end badly

[NullForceOmega]

Wow.

So what you are saying is that instead of trying to actually understand what is happening and why, you would simply destroy a persons life because it makes you uncomfortable to know that people react violently to certain stimuli?

Nice to know that there are such well adjusted people in the world.

[ChairmanPoo]

Wow.

So what you are saying is that instead of trying to actually understand what is happening and why, you would simply destroy a persons life because it makes you uncomfortable to know that people react violently to certain stimuli?

Nice to know that there are such well adjusted people in the world.

This goes beyond the realm of demagogy and straight into asinine country. Of course I'd call the police on a violent person, and so would you. Maybe you think I'm supposed to duel them instead, Queensbury style?

[DJ]

I'd just like to say that hurling insults at a violent person may not be the smartest thing to do.

[NullForceOmega]

I would only call the police on a violent person if I felt that there was no way to resolve the situation otherwise, just because another person is being violent doesn't mean that mediation is impossible.

You want asinine?  You just suggested that anyone who is violent has no place in the civilized world, this would make the police you want to call persons that should be excised from your 'society' it would make every soldier and veteran into pariahs, and would further ostracize criminals from being able to function in the world.

People are violent.  People are also what makes up your dearly beloved 'society'.  Society and civilization are just agreements between people for mutual protection, and how is that protection achieved?  Violence or the threat of violence.

Edit:  This particular subject is a sticking point to me, if it is also a sticking point for you ChairmanPoo then we should probably agree to let it lie before this becomes heated.

[birdy51]

People are hard to change. I find it is rare to find anyone who is willing to accept the ideas freely and lend a respectful, listening ear in return.

So, I'm going to advocate my own approach to coping. First, I find those who will respect me and whom I can give respect to. Friends and allies. I don't need to agree with them on everything, but it is vital that I find people who are willing to have my back. Those people are going to far more important to me than those who would cause me ill.

That said, I also have to keep in mind that some of those who cause me ill aren't trying to. So I try to be patient with the stubborn. They will come along in time should you lead the way first. I personally have to take this advice to heart since there are several occasions where I have nearly gotten into it with my brother where a final spat would have severed relationships, not fixed them. As it stands? We still don't have a good relationship. It fucking sucks.

But, I have to hope that as he and I get older, that there will be more chances to see eye to eye. When he's ready to cross the bridge to my side or I to his, I'll want to be ready.

[x2yzh9]

People are hard to change. I find it is rare to find anyone who is willing to accept the ideas freely and lend a respectful, listening ear in return.

So, I'm going to advocate my own approach to coping. First, I find those who will respect me and whom I can give respect to. Friends and allies. I don't need to agree with them on everything, but it is vital that I find people who are willing to have my back. Those people are going to far more important to me than those who would cause me ill.

That said, I also have to keep in mind that some of those who cause me ill aren't trying to. So I try to be patient with the stubborn. They will come along in time should you lead the way first. I personally have to take this advice to heart since there are several occasions where I have nearly gotten into it with my brother where a final spat would have severed relationships, not fixed them. As it stands? We still don't have a good relationship. It fucking sucks.

But, I have to hope that as he and I get older, that there will be more chances to see eye to eye. When he's ready to cross the bridge to my side or I to his, I'll want to be ready.

As Lao Tzu said, there's an art to war. And it's not even necessarily war.

You pick your people, your friends, you build these relationships on loyalty and reciprocal relationships. You weed out the snakes in the grass, and there comes a point in which you can intuitively say that if I called this person and was in deep shit they'd be there in an instant. That goes for you, too, so choose your deicions carefully because a failed bargain is worse than one that was never made.

Once you have people that you would stand up for, or would stand up for you, it becomes a group mentality I suppose. But look, do not ever reveal your plan if you have to deal with someone's bullshit. Let it be ice cold, unexpected and swift. That's to set the example to the rest-That you are not like the rest in immediate reactions. Although I will state there are times when you have to do that too. It's a fear factor, if you can reserve your anger and take all the shit until you have them right where you want them, and then bring down the hammer on them, then do so, but never ever foolishly. It's much like in the illiad when the wise man was telling him to save his anger, for he would know the moment when he needed it most. That applies here, and believe me, if you can fight one battle a year later to win a war, better that then hundreds of battles over several years. Know what I'm saying?

[Ghills]

Either I'm doing it wrong, or all the people saying to stand up for yourself are full of shit. I am very quick to call out people when they're being an asshole and nothing happens. No matter what I do, people just spit in my face and keep doing what they're doing, and I'm getting sick and tired of it. It's getting to the point where it feels like I'm getting fed a constant stream of bullshit 24/7, and there's nothing I can do.

Am I really doing it wrong? Are people just that awful?

In general, people hate being called on their behavior and will do their best to undermine you if you do it. This is especially true if they are used to being in a position of power (parent, boss, social superior).

If you want to help them change for their sake, the trick is learning how to phrase things so they believe changing is their idea. Very difficult.  Probably has no impact.

If you want the behavior to change because it's hurting you, the best way is to develop strategies of your own to mitigate the impact of their behavior.   Find ways to move out of the house or minimize the time spent with the problem person. Develop good friendships and a support network that has nothing to do with them.   Make sure your own mental and emotional health is good.  Recognize that they are being petty jackasses and trying to hurt/annoy/overpower others because of their own emotional damage.  Take care of yourself, and get out of the situation as quickly as possible.

This is not about revenge. It's not about being 'ice cold, unexpected and swift'.  It's not about them at all.  It's about you, and you doing what you need to so you can be happy, healthy and moving forward in life. 

[Reelya]

Either I'm doing it wrong, or all the people saying to stand up for yourself are full of shit. I am very quick to call out people when they're being an asshole and nothing happens. No matter what I do, people just spit in my face and keep doing what they're doing, and I'm getting sick and tired of it. It's getting to the point where it feels like I'm getting fed a constant stream of bullshit 24/7, and there's nothing I can do.

Am I really doing it wrong? Are people just that awful?

(1) Yes you're doing it wrong. (2) Yes, there are awful people.

"Standing up for yourself" involves 2 parts - the complaint, and the ultimatum/action. You have the complaining part down perfect, but it doesn't seem like you're following through with any sort of real challenge to the other person. "

"Stop that or I shall be very cross indeed" is guaranteed to get you an ass whooping, whereas a big guy saying "shut up or I'll smash your face in" is effective, since he can actually smash your face in. When you call people out for being assholes what are you expecting to happen? What are the consequences involved for the other party if they ignore you?  If they are spitting in your face and carrying on then you either aren't giving them any reason to stop, which just makes you annoying, or you're not able/willing to follow through with whatever threat you made to them. What you lack in these situations is probably power. By complaining to the other person and relying on their good nature to stop, you're not empowering yourself, you're supplicating yourself to the other person.

In fact, say you complain about something and the other person ignores you, you're now in a worse position than if you just pretending you just didn't care from the start. Being screwed over, complaining, being ignored, and unable to do anything about it is more disempowering than pretending you never gave a shit in the first place. So pick your battles, don't complain about the little stuff or they won't take you seriously for the big stuff, and don't make ultimatums unless you actually have leverage and control.