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Author Topic: Bodyguards  (Read 3745 times)

GoblinCookie

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Re: Bodyguards
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2016, 03:05:01 pm »

The player already has no motivation to host nobles what with the irritating mandates and all, thus the frequent arranging of 'accidents'.

I feel you may be only looking at the idea from a players prospective. If we imagine ourselves as that noble for a moment: We're a VERY important dwarf of course. So obviously we are worth protecting from all the havoc that may occur within a fortress, and it gives us a happy thought, having these burly dwarfs around to make sure a goblin doesn't stab us in the gut. Doesn't seem like a waste of a soldier to the noble does it?

I don't see any reason not to put something in game as it becomes available just because everything related to it isn't ready yet. Players will find uses for bodyguards, and assassins murderers etc. will show up eventually as well. As with everything, it's only a matter of time.

I have already told you definite reason not to add something pointless into the game, the newbies do not know it is pointless and so will waste resources on things that being newbies they likely do not have the resources to waste on. 

Whether our noble thinks he is an uber-important inherently is dependent on his personality values for [PRIDE].  Whether our noble thinks he is uber-important for being a noble is dependent upon his values in regard to [POWER]. Thus a noble with lower [PRIDE] personality and low [POWER] values does not automatically think he is so important that he should deprive the fortress of a valuable soldier in order to protect himself against the next to non-existent threat of being killed at random by a vampire.

I was going to remark that vampires tend to target people who are alone in a room, which tends to be my busily working administration staff, nobles sitting in their grand halls 24/7, and high end craftsdwarves who are usually furnished with massive multiroom megahalls and who rarely share a room with their families.  Everyone else is either sharing one room with their families, or is at work near other dwarves.  As a result, vampires hit my top level dwarves in my forts much more often than not.

e: misc edits

A funny game you are playing.  Nobles normally work like all the other dwarves, so why would they be sitting around in their rooms unless you specifically deactivated all their normal labors.  They will also share their room automatically with their families like everybody else.  It is also funny given how rare dwarf vampires are that you know so much about them, I have yet to see a vampire in fortress mode at all.
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QuakeIV

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Re: Bodyguards
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2016, 07:33:15 pm »

I tend to turn off labors for my nobles, its weird to have barons and stuff out sock hauling.  I suppose once I had one training dogs, another time one was a decent blacksmith.  By and large though they dont have to work.

Also, my nobles do also have multi room halls (which i failed to mention), just much smaller ones.  So they spend plenty of time alone.

Finally, vampires generally aren't obvious until drained corpses start showing up everywhere.  I think it has to do with how well vampires survived in worldgen.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Bodyguards
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2016, 04:45:19 am »

I tend to turn off labors for my nobles, its weird to have barons and stuff out sock hauling.  I suppose once I had one training dogs, another time one was a decent blacksmith.  By and large though they dont have to work.

Also, my nobles do also have multi room halls (which i failed to mention), just much smaller ones.  So they spend plenty of time alone.

Finally, vampires generally aren't obvious until drained corpses start showing up everywhere.  I think it has to do with how well vampires survived in worldgen.

Assassins should be similarly difficult to spot as vampires.  They should turn up as ordinary migrants or visitors, kill their target silently and then head for the exit, the player should only be informed as to the assassination and who has been slain when they have left the map. 
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QuakeIV

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Re: Bodyguards
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2016, 04:18:54 am »

True that would be kinda cool.
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pikachu17

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Re: Bodyguards
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2016, 09:58:27 am »

Quote from: GoblinCookie
I have already told you definite reason not to add something pointless into the game, the newbies do not know it is pointless and so will waste resources on things that being newbies they likely do not have the resources to waste on. 
    first off bodyguards would hardly be "pointless", as being able to add bodyguards means that I make sure nobody hurts my armorsmiths(sure having the bodyguard instead be a soldier might help with regular stuff, like enemy soldiers and colossi , but what about more subtle stuff that gets in the middle of your fort?)
    secondly, if Toady shouldn't add stuff if newbies can't tell how pointless it is, then he shouldn't have added stuff like taverns, needs, potash, soap and  becoming a lord in adventure mode.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Bodyguards
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2016, 11:10:20 am »

    first off bodyguards would hardly be "pointless", as being able to add bodyguards means that I make sure nobody hurts my armorsmiths(sure having the bodyguard instead be a soldier might help with regular stuff, like enemy soldiers and colossi , but what about more subtle stuff that gets in the middle of your fort?)
    secondly, if Toady shouldn't add stuff if newbies can't tell how pointless it is, then he shouldn't have added stuff like taverns, needs, potash, soap and  becoming a lord in adventure mode.

Nobody is after your armoursmiths in particular either so still no use for bodyguards.  Taverns are not pointless, soap is not pointless, needs are not pointless, becoming a lord in adventure mode is not pointless, potash is not pointless either, so your point falls flat.  The only really pointless feature I can think of is really the ability to dedicate temples to deities but that is in because of the need to create a unitary system of temples for both modes. 
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breadman

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Re: Bodyguards
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2016, 12:24:46 pm »

Nobody is after your armoursmiths in particular either so still no use for bodyguards.
There are plenty of dangerous things that don't target a particular dwarf, but could still end up attacking someone important just because that's who happens to be nearby.  I, for one, support the idea of being able to assign bodyguards to anyone I want.  Particularly if being bodyguarded means they have the confidence to do their assigned job without getting spooked by random wildlife.
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mirrizin

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Re: Bodyguards
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2016, 04:26:44 pm »

Nobody is after your armoursmiths in particular either so still no use for bodyguards.
There are plenty of dangerous things that don't target a particular dwarf, but could still end up attacking someone important just because that's who happens to be nearby.  I, for one, support the idea of being able to assign bodyguards to anyone I want.  Particularly if being bodyguarded means they have the confidence to do their assigned job without getting spooked by random wildlife.
I've noticed that my nobles have an uncanny knack for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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pikachu17

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Re: Bodyguards
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2016, 01:20:01 pm »

    first off bodyguards would hardly be "pointless", as being able to add bodyguards means that I make sure nobody hurts my armorsmiths(sure having the bodyguard instead be a soldier might help with regular stuff, like enemy soldiers and colossi , but what about more subtle stuff that gets in the middle of your fort?)
    secondly, if Toady shouldn't add stuff if newbies can't tell how pointless it is, then he shouldn't have added stuff like taverns, needs, potash, soap and  becoming a lord in adventure mode.

Nobody is after your armoursmiths in particular either so still no use for bodyguards.  Taverns are not pointless, soap is not pointless, needs are not pointless, becoming a lord in adventure mode is not pointless, potash is not pointless either, so your point falls flat.  The only really pointless feature I can think of is really the ability to dedicate temples to deities but that is in because of the need to create a unitary system of temples for both modes.
Still would be nice to protect my armor-smiths from things, even if they won't be specifically targeted by them.
    and in the topic of their being pointless: taverns take resources and don't give anything back. soap has a ludicrously long list of things it needs to have to create the soap, and it doesn't do much that regular washing doesn't. needs, I guess, do have a little use, but mostly you either have to make your soldiers off-duty every time they want to craft, or just ignore needs. since regular farming currently creates more than enough food, potash isn't needed much. becoming a lord in adventure mode? could you please tell me how it functions as useful?
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Bodyguards
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2016, 08:41:22 am »

Still would be nice to protect my armor-smiths from things, even if they won't be specifically targeted by them.
    and in the topic of their being pointless: taverns take resources and don't give anything back. soap has a ludicrously long list of things it needs to have to create the soap, and it doesn't do much that regular washing doesn't. needs, I guess, do have a little use, but mostly you either have to make your soldiers off-duty every time they want to craft, or just ignore needs. since regular farming currently creates more than enough food, potash isn't needed much. becoming a lord in adventure mode? could you please tell me how it functions as useful?

Producing soap requires tallow which automatically occurs whenever you have a kitchen and butcher an animal, also it requires lye which is made from ash in an ashery; not a ludicrously long list of anything.  Taverns give plenty back, not only do they allow dwarves to meet certain needs that they have which cannot be met otherwise but they visitors to visit your fortress, who ultimately can join and these visitors have skills ordinary immigrants seldom possess.  You are mostly right about potash, however farming is mostly to produce pig tails for clothing and plump helmets for drinks not to grow food which can be gotten in most biomes simply by gathering or fishing, if you have only a tiny amount of soil on your map you may find a use for potash until you can manage to wall off a cavern area.  Becoming a lord is very useful because it allows your character to occupy the sites of your civilizations enemies who will otherwise simply respawn with new people. 

Bodyguards without assassins are kind of like potash really.  Perhaps you can think of a scenario where the random death of a single individual would be so devastating as to make it the case that assigning one or more soldiers to an individual just in case he dies is worth it but that is like the potash in the low soil site above mentioned.  What I cannot grasp however is why we are talking about fortress mode when adventure mode actually need bodyguards to thwart the player's present role as an assassin.  Why does the game not simply generate soldiers to follow around anyone that has [KILL_QUEST] position?
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