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Author Topic: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc  (Read 96014 times)

Reelya

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1110 on: November 08, 2017, 11:52:42 am »

Also i think focusing on the pedestrians / trolley-problem specifics misses the point. The vast majority of road deaths are not pedestrians, the vast majority are deaths of other people who are in cars. So no, saying we can trade off car deaths for pedestrians is a red herring there that took the TP too literally.

So the thing is, and this links back to my previous energy thing (which was in fact a metaphor for pollution if you didn't get that):

- people could buy (A) cars that minimize all road deaths
- or people could buy (B) cars that minimize their own chance of death at the expense of everyone else.
- almost all people say they want to buy type (B) cars
- but they almost all agree that everyone should get type (A), just not them
- however they oppose legislation that would make everyone get type (A).
- so everyone will probably buy into type (B) cars programmed to focus on "me-first".

- and anyone who then bought a type (A) car is a schmuck, because you have the lone self-sacrificing car among a bunch of assholes who'll run you into a wall to save themselves.

- however, the paradox is each individual driver is in fact statistically less safe because of their adamant demand that their personal safety be ensured by the specific car they bought. The paradox arises in any situation when we're each trying to push extra costs onto other people rather than minimize total costs to all people. Since we're each pushing additional costs onto each other in order to minimize our share of the costs we all end up paying more.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:08:28 pm by Reelya »
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Tack

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1111 on: November 08, 2017, 12:02:09 pm »

More expensive cars override less expensive cars.
Capitalism wins forever.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1112 on: November 08, 2017, 01:26:51 pm »

There's always the awful solution.

Everyone wants to be the one person whose life all self-driving cars are designed to spare at all costs, whether they're in them or not; this is no different from what they want from human-driven cars, but people are more comfortable making impossible demands of robots.

Well, then, why not sell that? (That question is rhetorical.) Auction off avoidance priorities, and just have the cars communicate with each other and with the pedestrians' phones to decide who to hit based on a greedy algorithm that steers them away from the highest-priority individuals in the vicinity.

Yes, it's awful in countless ways. But it makes the automated car executives more money than any other solution I've seen so far, so it's probably going to be the one we end up implementing.

With any luck that idea would be immediately struck down in courts. This is essentially a "pay-to-not-die" scenario; it violates basic human rights. Yes, it's true we generally have to pay for food, shelter, and other basic necessities, but if we are unable to do so, our rights state that we are provided them nonetheless. If we are unable to pay to not die, we are (usually) assured we won't die anyway. This whole idea circumvents that; what if you're on a minimum wage salary, have to support your family, and thus aren't able to pay for this service? Your chance of death compared to those around you has increased, perhaps greatly.

The reasoning of this idea is like that behind an anarcho-capitalist society. We haven't degraded to that point yet, fortunately, so we won't be seeing it anytime soon.
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Reelya

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1113 on: November 08, 2017, 02:08:47 pm »

There's always the awful solution.

Everyone wants to be the one person whose life all self-driving cars are designed to spare at all costs, whether they're in them or not; this is no different from what they want from human-driven cars, but people are more comfortable making impossible demands of robots.

Well, then, why not sell that? (That question is rhetorical.) Auction off avoidance priorities, and just have the cars communicate with each other and with the pedestrians' phones to decide who to hit based on a greedy algorithm that steers them away from the highest-priority individuals in the vicinity.

Yes, it's awful in countless ways. But it makes the automated car executives more money than any other solution I've seen so far, so it's probably going to be the one we end up implementing.

you're probably right about that actually, I'd sort of missed this post before, it ties into what I've written too. Some ways this trade-off could be monetized include building it into your insurance premiums. e.g. if you get a "greedy" algorithm such as "steeravoid 3000" which always maximizes your chance of life at the expense of others, then the insurance companies are going to start taking note of which algorithm you've chosen to implement. And then they're going to gouge you on third-party insurance. It would basically be similar for all forms of damage and potential medical expenses, the people who can afford the least will end up with AI algorithms that minimize potential costs for all insured road-users, whereas the rich won't care - they'll happily pay extra insurance to be covered for having an AI that is willing to sacrifice others for their own safety. But it won't be phrased as "willing to run down a woman with a baby, if it protects the car occupant", it will be phrased as "maximize safety at all costs". This AI you bought that "maximizes safety at all costs" might then even make some terrible decisions that the real driver wouldn't have - like running over 20 school children instead of increasing risk for the car occupants.

Car AI is going to be important in cases such as accident forensics, so I imagine a TON of laws are going to be passed so that the choice of AI you have is something you need to tell people about. It's not like linux vs windows on your PC - if you change the code on a life or death machine that can kill other people, the government and insurance agencies will want that information, and they'll legislate to get it. e.g. if they find out you changed your self-driving algorithm to a "greedy" algorithm to avoid damage, and it smashed someone else up, good luck with insurance payouts/premiums. And with full computer logs from both robot cars, if you ran someone off the road to protect yourself, they're going to notice that and make you pay for it.

So there should evolve an eco-system around this where car-makers, AI designers and insurance companies, police and government all play off each other here.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 02:29:01 pm by Reelya »
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Bumber

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1114 on: November 08, 2017, 02:10:01 pm »

With any luck that idea would be immediately struck down in courts. This is essentially a "pay-to-not-die" scenario; it violates basic human rights. Yes, it's true we generally have to pay for food, shelter, and other basic necessities, but if we are unable to do so, our rights state that we are provided them nonetheless.
Risks are different from necessities. Living in a well-funded, low-crime area isn't a right, even though it affects your chances of dying. Death panels!
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syvarris

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1115 on: November 08, 2017, 02:23:44 pm »

Quote from: Ree
So new situations are often phrased as being variants of the Trolley Problem so that we can make use off 50 years of ethics research rather than going in blind to every new situation, which wouldn't allow us to tap into 50 years of insights and research on the existing framework.

It's cute that you think the other people here care to actually educate themselves on the subject.  Yeah, there's plenty of information out there, but you don't need that information to form an opinion and then defend it to the death.

Reelya

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1116 on: November 08, 2017, 02:32:59 pm »

Nah, I wasn't expecting them to do that, just pointing out how the specifics that are being discussed were in fact from a 50-year-old academic thought experiment. The TP is analogous to a lot of real-world decisions, but it's a clear mistake to start applying it literally to every new situation, as if every new ethical situation was only analogous to the TP if it involved 5 pedestrians being run over. If we go that route, then something that's supposed to be a tool that lets us abstract ethical problems and decide if they're really comparable or not, gets reduced to discussing inane details instead.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 02:39:47 pm by Reelya »
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Sheb

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1117 on: November 08, 2017, 02:44:36 pm »

Yeah, there's plenty of information out there, but you don't need that information to form an opinion and then defend it to the death.

Can I sig this?
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Reelya

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1118 on: November 08, 2017, 03:15:05 pm »

Trekkin

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1119 on: November 08, 2017, 03:19:12 pm »

Can I sig this?

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You sigged him asking if he can sig someone else's post?
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scourge728

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1121 on: November 08, 2017, 06:50:57 pm »

No, Sheb, I refuse to be sigged yet again.  I think there's three people running around with me in their sigs, I don't think I could take the stress of a fourth.  My skin crawls just imagining it...
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Jopax

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1122 on: November 09, 2017, 05:30:56 pm »

AI learning cuts down render time from dozens of hours to minutes.

Doubtful if they'll ever release it for wider use since the commercial application is pretty damn huge in terms of time saved but it's still a damn cool thing to see happen.
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McTraveller

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1123 on: November 09, 2017, 07:55:33 pm »

AI learning cuts down render time from dozens of hours to minutes.

Doubtful if they'll ever release it for wider use since the commercial application is pretty damn huge in terms of time saved but it's still a damn cool thing to see happen.
Ersatz clouds!  Awesome!

It's actually... interesting.  I wonder if it could somehow apply to all those discussions about people wondering about the computational power required to "compute" the universe. I've heard some people hand-wave it as "the universe isn't computed, it just evolves" but perhaps something like this AI stuff applies.  For instance, if all you had was the output of the ANN-produced clouds, would you come up with the physics behind cloud scattering?  Or does it only work the other way - where you have to already know how a cloud works to make a neural network that can make things that look like clouds, but aren't really clouds.
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Trekkin

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1124 on: November 09, 2017, 08:12:04 pm »


It's actually... interesting.  I wonder if it could somehow apply to all those discussions about people wondering about the computational power required to "compute" the universe. I've heard some people hand-wave it as "the universe isn't computed, it just evolves" but perhaps something like this AI stuff applies.  For instance, if all you had was the output of the ANN-produced clouds, would you come up with the physics behind cloud scattering?  Or does it only work the other way - where you have to already know how a cloud works to make a neural network that can make things that look like clouds, but aren't really clouds.

In brief (and knowing full well that I'm opening myself to being barraged by a million poorly written gee-whiz-robots articles from Wired or wherever), neural networks are excellent classifiers in part because they're efficient at pruning down huge state spaces in ways that aren't immediately apparent to human programmers -- which also means that it's not necessarily possible to learn anything transferable from the final network topology. You don't need to know how a cloud works, but you do need to know how to write code that can stochastically produce clouds.
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