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Author Topic: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?  (Read 1885 times)

Grim Portent

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2016, 09:03:33 pm »

I remember a thread (I tried to find it) where the goal was to make them as useful as possible.

This meant making them pets that you could embark with, and also making their hair shearable and the elves milkable through deliberately unspecified means. So that was a thing.

I did that once several versions ago, though I do think I remember some other people trying it too as part of experiments into how sapient pets worked. It was primarily intended to make the Elves help out with farming and such but back then it didn't work because pets couldn't do jobs. So I wound up throwing them all off a really tall cliff to see them go splat. Back then [PET] overrode most of the stuff [CAN_LEARN] and [CAN_SPEAK] did, and non-dwarfs couldn't be proper fort members or receive most job orders. They could fish, be managers I think, and sometimes I think they'd gather plants or hunt, but they need to be given natural skills for that.

With the advent of multi-racial forts I've been experimenting with the basic idea again, though I've not been bothering with milking or shearing, but instead with the idea of adding additional fort members of other races to the starting 7, and I have found a way to do it. The [PET] and [COMMON_DOMESTIC] tokens make it possible to buy other sentients at embark for 1 point each, and then once you've settled you simply enter the world's RAWs and remove the tokens from them. They then cease to be pets but remain citizens and can be assigned labours, become nobles and join units. They do however keep the (Tame) tag after their name, which is a little annoying. This can get you basically anything you want as a fort member at embark, though it may mess up megabeast and civilized race world gen interactions, I haven't tested that properly.

So if you want a unit of elven swordsmen to be part of your military but don't want to wait for enough petitions, or want a human baron, you just need to buy them like puppies.  :D
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There once was a dwarf in a cave,
who many would consider brave.
With a head like a block
he went out for a sock,
his ass I won't bother to save.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2016, 02:18:23 pm »

With the advent of multi-racial forts I've been experimenting with the basic idea again, though I've not been bothering with milking or shearing, but instead with the idea of adding additional fort members of other races to the starting 7, and I have found a way to do it. The [PET] and [COMMON_DOMESTIC] tokens make it possible to buy other sentients at embark for 1 point each, and then once you've settled you simply enter the world's RAWs and remove the tokens from them. They then cease to be pets but remain citizens and can be assigned labours, become nobles and join units. They do however keep the (Tame) tag after their name, which is a little annoying. This can get you basically anything you want as a fort member at embark, though it may mess up megabeast and civilized race world gen interactions, I haven't tested that properly.

Holy geez that's awesome.

Here's a question, which tag allows them to operate as members? Is can learn enough? If so, one could get giant friends for your fort.

I want to make a super multicultural fort. Gonna start with 2 of each race and see what happens.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
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FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Grim Portent

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2016, 03:21:55 pm »

With the advent of multi-racial forts I've been experimenting with the basic idea again, though I've not been bothering with milking or shearing, but instead with the idea of adding additional fort members of other races to the starting 7, and I have found a way to do it. The [PET] and [COMMON_DOMESTIC] tokens make it possible to buy other sentients at embark for 1 point each, and then once you've settled you simply enter the world's RAWs and remove the tokens from them. They then cease to be pets but remain citizens and can be assigned labours, become nobles and join units. They do however keep the (Tame) tag after their name, which is a little annoying. This can get you basically anything you want as a fort member at embark, though it may mess up megabeast and civilized race world gen interactions, I haven't tested that properly.

Holy geez that's awesome.

Here's a question, which tag allows them to operate as members? Is can learn enough? If so, one could get giant friends for your fort.

I want to make a super multicultural fort. Gonna start with 2 of each race and see what happens.

They need both can_learn and can_speak I think, I really should test that on dogs or something. Slow_learner works as well but stops them from being nobles.

I did some testing on giants and found the megabeast tokens are a bit of a problem. They seem to cause issues when guests with the megabeast or semimegabeast tokens are present, as locals treat them as hostile. You could duplicate giants and remove the semimegabeast tokens and building destroyer from them though and get some that way, or just edit the normal giants and not have them be part of the megabeast pool.
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There once was a dwarf in a cave,
who many would consider brave.
With a head like a block
he went out for a sock,
his ass I won't bother to save.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2016, 03:28:03 pm »

With the advent of multi-racial forts I've been experimenting with the basic idea again, though I've not been bothering with milking or shearing, but instead with the idea of adding additional fort members of other races to the starting 7, and I have found a way to do it. The [PET] and [COMMON_DOMESTIC] tokens make it possible to buy other sentients at embark for 1 point each, and then once you've settled you simply enter the world's RAWs and remove the tokens from them. They then cease to be pets but remain citizens and can be assigned labours, become nobles and join units. They do however keep the (Tame) tag after their name, which is a little annoying. This can get you basically anything you want as a fort member at embark, though it may mess up megabeast and civilized race world gen interactions, I haven't tested that properly.

Holy geez that's awesome.

Here's a question, which tag allows them to operate as members? Is can learn enough? If so, one could get giant friends for your fort.

I want to make a super multicultural fort. Gonna start with 2 of each race and see what happens.

They need both can_learn and can_speak I think, I really should test that on dogs or something. Slow_learner works as well but stops them from being nobles.

I did some testing on giants and found the megabeast tokens are a bit of a problem. They seem to cause issues when guests with the megabeast or semimegabeast tokens are present, as locals treat them as hostile. You could duplicate giants and remove the semimegabeast tokens and building destroyer from them though and get some that way, or just edit the normal giants and not have them be part of the megabeast pool.

Gonna try some of this.

Also I realized I'd need four of each race. Breeding and such.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Fleeting Frames

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2016, 03:40:54 pm »

Technically, only two of elves and goblins, since those live forever (as long as nothing happens to the parents).

Dunamisdeos

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2016, 03:49:07 pm »

Technically, only two of elves and goblins, since those live forever (as long as nothing happens to the parents).

But the kids cant breed then :O
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Grim Portent

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2016, 04:52:47 pm »

Technically, only two of elves and goblins, since those live forever (as long as nothing happens to the parents).

But the kids cant breed then :O

It's hard to breed immortal races anyway since they can spawn with a very large age range, and last I checked one of the limits on marriage is that they have to be within a decade of each other, unless I'm remembering wrong.
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There once was a dwarf in a cave,
who many would consider brave.
With a head like a block
he went out for a sock,
his ass I won't bother to save.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2016, 07:32:21 pm »

Technically, only two of elves and goblins, since those live forever (as long as nothing happens to the parents).

But the kids cant breed then :O

It's hard to breed immortal races anyway since they can spawn with a very large age range, and last I checked one of the limits on marriage is that they have to be within a decade of each other, unless I'm remembering wrong.

Yeah but the idea being to whip out enough kids that the kids are within breeding range of each other. I could just make them cost 1, bring 25 of em', and atom smash all but the ones who can make babies with each other.

Sort of like a horrific eugenics program, but geared towards multicultural co-existence.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Grim Portent

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2016, 07:28:35 am »

Technically, only two of elves and goblins, since those live forever (as long as nothing happens to the parents).

But the kids cant breed then :O

It's hard to breed immortal races anyway since they can spawn with a very large age range, and last I checked one of the limits on marriage is that they have to be within a decade of each other, unless I'm remembering wrong.

Yeah but the idea being to whip out enough kids that the kids are within breeding range of each other. I could just make them cost 1, bring 25 of em', and atom smash all but the ones who can make babies with each other.

Sort of like a horrific eugenics program, but geared towards multicultural co-existence.

You could also use it to fill all non-combatant roles with goblins or elves, since they are technically better at them due to being immortal and not losing legendary craftsmen to old age though they are slightly worse in combat than dwarfs.
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There once was a dwarf in a cave,
who many would consider brave.
With a head like a block
he went out for a sock,
his ass I won't bother to save.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2016, 12:17:19 pm »

Technically, only two of elves and goblins, since those live forever (as long as nothing happens to the parents).

But the kids cant breed then :O

It's hard to breed immortal races anyway since they can spawn with a very large age range, and last I checked one of the limits on marriage is that they have to be within a decade of each other, unless I'm remembering wrong.

Yeah but the idea being to whip out enough kids that the kids are within breeding range of each other. I could just make them cost 1, bring 25 of em', and atom smash all but the ones who can make babies with each other.

Sort of like a horrific eugenics program, but geared towards multicultural co-existence.

You could also use it to fill all non-combatant roles with goblins or elves, since they are technically better at them due to being immortal and not losing legendary craftsmen to old age though they are slightly worse in combat than dwarfs.

So let's see.... Dwarven Weapon/Armor/Metal smiths would be best, on account of moods.

Humans could fill roles like masonry and mechanic and woodcutters and such. Things where being legendary doesn't effect the end product all that much aside from the speed of the job.

Elves can be farmers, engravers, brewers, etc. Things where there is a clear benefit to having a permanent legendary filling the role.

I don't know if I want goblins because I can't take them seriously. They are small and puny. If I do decide to bring goblins, they can train animals and handle mining.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Grim Portent

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2016, 02:13:10 pm »

Goblins are the same size as Elves and Dwarfs. They're as good as Elves at most things, but Dwarfs are the best warriors due to trances and having a higher average toughness.
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There once was a dwarf in a cave,
who many would consider brave.
With a head like a block
he went out for a sock,
his ass I won't bother to save.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2016, 02:32:12 pm »

Goblins are the same size as Elves and Dwarfs. They're as good as Elves at most things, but Dwarfs are the best warriors due to trances and having a higher average toughness.

Logically, I know this about goblins. However, my name ain't Mr. Spock and I have a preconception of goblins and stupid and weak.

It's hard enough for me to put aside my INCANDESCENT HATRED of elves long enough to let them into my experiment. I don't want to push it.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Fleeting Frames

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2016, 03:46:25 pm »

Artifact weaponry is kind of a mixed bag. An elf is likely to have better attributes than a dwarf for weaponsmithing, so training one up would be beneficial. However, artifacts are the best, and you get a legendary weaponsmith for free most of the time. Also, animal training due peace with wildlife. Perhaps hunting/fishing, outdoors jobs due being at peace with nature?

Goblins, not needing to eat and drink, are great for invisible uniform jobs as well as stuff like sealed archery pillboxes.

They're both great for jobs requiring memory, though I'm not sure if you can get enough empathy on goblin for diagnosis.

Dwarves are best for military, yeah.

Humans and elves, having no alcohol dependence but drinking water are relatively simple to vamp, so there's that for them.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: Elves: Useful only as trap testers?
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2016, 04:16:29 pm »

Artifact weaponry is kind of a mixed bag. An elf is likely to have better attributes than a dwarf for weaponsmithing, so training one up would be beneficial. However, artifacts are the best, and you get a legendary weaponsmith for free most of the time. Also, animal training due peace with wildlife. Perhaps hunting/fishing, outdoors jobs due being at peace with nature?

Goblins, not needing to eat and drink, are great for invisible uniform jobs as well as stuff like sealed archery pillboxes.

They're both great for jobs requiring memory, though I'm not sure if you can get enough empathy on goblin for diagnosis.

Dwarves are best for military, yeah.

Humans and elves, having no alcohol dependence but drinking water are relatively simple to vamp, so there's that for them.

Oooooooh yeah I forgot about the alcohol dependency.

The amount of booze that will need to be produced to both meet the dwarves needs AND counteract the constant recreational drinking from the other races will be significant.

I forgot about goblins not needing eat-drink. That makes them too valuable to ignore.

UPDATE:

I just embarked on a glacier with no aquifer because I am a sadist. Time to get to the caverns stat.

Also, it would not let me embark with goblins. Probably because the dwarves were at war with them? Anyway this should be an interesting experiment.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 04:54:41 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0
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