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Author Topic: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway  (Read 59468 times)

Rolan7

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #570 on: October 21, 2016, 10:16:22 am »

If only I dreamt.  Of anything :v
I think I've already suggested this, but just in case:  I find eating something cheesy and oily like pizza right before bed *always* gives me trippy, vivid dreams.  Often a bit feverish and unrestful though.

yeah I've been feeling unusually free after spilling my beans here a few days ago

freedom is one hell of a drug
I'm really glad (:
I felt even better once I did so with meatspace friends, but...  Uh, I guess you live in Russia?  Sorry if this is rude, but it's very dangerous to be openly non-binary there isn't it? ):

The important thing is that your friends know, wherever they are.  I mean heck, I didn't tell my friends in *person*, we only meet in meatspace like twice a year since I moved.  Yet we talk most days.
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Sergarr

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #571 on: October 21, 2016, 10:48:18 am »

yeah I've been feeling unusually free after spilling my beans here a few days ago

freedom is one hell of a drug
I'm really glad (:
I felt even better once I did so with meatspace friends, but...  Uh, I guess you live in Russia?  Sorry if this is rude, but it's very dangerous to be openly non-binary there isn't it? ):

The important thing is that your friends know, wherever they are.  I mean heck, I didn't tell my friends in *person*, we only meet in meatspace like twice a year since I moved.  Yet we talk most days.
Yes, I think it is indeed somewhat dangerous to come out openly in here; thankfully (for the purpose of "not getting beat up"), I don't really have any meatspace friends, and I currently barely have any Russian acquaintances outside of the people in my university, who don't count as even potential friends because they have either displayed zero interest in the overwhelming majority of the stuff I'm interested in, or evidently regularly visit 4chan and are insufferable douchebags. There is one possible exception here, but that person is hanging out all the time with the "insufferable douchebags" group, so I'm kind of not really interested.

Basically, the 95+% of my active social circle is, well, here and on that one other English-speaking forum, which I basically treat as a war zone because it's a rather aggressive place. It wasn't always like that, I used to be pretty regularly visiting some other Russian-language places, but I got too damn tired of the many, many trolls of various kinds being allowed to just constantly say ugly stuff to everyone around them, so I kind of totally quit even going there.

Anyway, what am I saying is that coming out here was basically almost as close to coming out to my friends as I can get.
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Cinder

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #572 on: October 21, 2016, 12:29:04 pm »

If only I dreamt.  Of anything :v
Not to be a pedant but everyone dreams. It's just a matter of you not remembering it.
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Dozeb˘m Lolumzalýs

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #573 on: October 21, 2016, 12:37:37 pm »

Androids don't dream. Except maybe of electric sheep?
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Solifuge

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #574 on: October 21, 2016, 05:13:42 pm »

Spoiler: Expand for Quotes: (click to show/hide)

Reelya, I'm not 100% sure I follow you on why people need to know the whole system to understand any one part of it, or why that's any different than it already is? The idea was that we get 1 step more specific than Man/Male and Woman/Female without abandoning their existing meanings, and reform "Gay/Straight/Bi" to work for non-binary folks. The medical-sounding long form words were intentionally clinical, since they describe the state of someone's body or mind. I agree that it needs shorthand words for some new concepts (gynophilic and androphilic are already the terms we're using for non-binary Sexual Orientations), but old shorthand words still work in that system. For example, "Gay Guy" would apply to any Androphilic Man, regardless of their body's Sex (Male, Female, etc.) or their additional preferences (say if they're into Girly Males and are Andro-Feminophilic).

For the "also" part, and in response to Caz and DL...



When thinking about reforming our ideas about gender and sex, I think it's important to keep it relevant to the average person, and to build on ideas they already know. There's a reason that singular "They" is the most common pronoun-of-choice for androgynous or genderqueer folks, while earlier attempts to use "Ze/Hir" didn't take off as well outside of LGBT folks and allies. It's similar to the reason Esperanto never took off as a constructed language either. People prefer to use tools they're familiar with, including language. Also, ideas need to relate to something concrete or important, and for people we're evaluating as patients or as partners, that's often our bodies and our behavior.

Male and Female are good anchors, which is why I use them to describe Physical Sex. Feminine and Masculine are less solid anchors, since they're cultural ideals and vary from person to person. Still, it helps to have a word to separate the Masculine Gender Role (Man) from the XY or Androgenic Body (Male), and the Feminine Gender Role (Woman) from the XX or Estrogenic Body (Female).

Speaking of which, I do think it's relevant to doctors and potential partners to expand beyond Male, Female, and Intersex as definitions for bodies. We have both Primary (genetic) and Secondary (hormonal) sex characteristics as people, and trans and intersex people may have Secondary traits which don't match their Primary ones due to hormones or surgery. Working off that mess I posted earlier, here's some charts that define the kinds of Physical Sexes there are, without distancing it from ideas people are familiar with. I'm skipping a Gender Chart since they're arbitrary, but there's an Orientation Chart that sort of covers it too.

Also they're color coded by their relationship to the binary, because I love y'all too. :Y

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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #575 on: October 22, 2016, 11:41:44 am »

If only I dreamt.  Of anything :v
Not to be a pedant but everyone dreams. It's just a matter of you not remembering it.
If you can never observe a thing, did it happen?

@Rolan:I generally eat pizza every single night and don't dream a whit.  :v
My diet is kinda shot, isn't it.  Wrong thread for that though!

@Sergarr:Teach meeeeeeee

@Sergarr, one post later:*hugs*

@Solifuge:I was literally about to link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androphilia_and_gynephilia

Thrn I read your post.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 11:44:35 am by TheBiggerFish »
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Sergarr

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #576 on: October 22, 2016, 02:39:21 pm »

If only I dreamt.  Of anything :v
Not to be a pedant but everyone dreams. It's just a matter of you not remembering it.
If you can never observe a thing, did it happen?
Yes. It's a quite often thing when things that people don't consciously remember continues to affect them on the subconscious level. A lot of phobias are like that.

@Sergarr:Teach meeeeeeee
See that's the tricky part. To make a Dark Pact, you need to find a devil, but as you all know, devils don't quite exist IRL. So you have to imagine one, really hard, and then you have to sell your soul

/jk

But really, as much as I doubt it would work for another person (because our minds are highly, highly individual), you can try the following:

@Sergarr, one post later:*hugs*
* Sergarr hugs back
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #577 on: October 22, 2016, 05:42:38 pm »

@Sergarr:That sounds pretty cool.
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Codician

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #578 on: October 23, 2016, 12:42:47 am »



I have a real problem with this, mainly that Allah is DEFINITELY male. There's no other way around it, especially considering in the Qu'ran he refers to himself as male.

This person has a huge lack of understanding of both gender AND Islam. What a mess.
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Edmus

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #579 on: October 23, 2016, 12:49:48 am »

Perhaps it's less literal than you are interpreting. Allah or God may serve as a metonym for the religion.
ie. Islam has no gender.
I'm sure she holds some very strong opinions, and that she'd love to share them.
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Catmeat

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #580 on: October 23, 2016, 01:02:06 am »


I have a real problem with this, mainly that Allah is DEFINITELY male. There's no other way around it, especially considering in the Qu'ran he refers to himself as male.

This person has a huge lack of understanding of both gender AND Islam. What a mess.

Just like all deitys DEFINITELY exsist?
Translated into my language it goes like this; You what mate?!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 04:55:43 am by Catmeat »
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Codician

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #581 on: October 23, 2016, 01:03:01 am »

Perhaps it's less literal than you are interpreting. Allah or God may serve as a metonym for the religion.
ie. Islam has no gender.
I'm sure she holds some very strong opinions, and that she'd love to share them.

Their Imam would have some very strong opinions on how wrong they are on that.

I mean, the order of importance in creation is pretty much Allah > Man > Woman. Trying to change Islam like that is heresy, it's not something that can be reformed like Christianity.

Just like all deitys DEFINITELY exsist?
Translated into my language it goes like this; You what mate?!

???
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #582 on: October 23, 2016, 02:01:39 am »

Perhaps it's less literal than you are interpreting. Allah or God may serve as a metonym for the religion.
ie. Islam has no gender.
I'm sure she holds some very strong opinions, and that she'd love to share them.

Their Imam would have some very strong opinions on how wrong they are on that.

I mean, the order of importance in creation is pretty much Allah > Man > Woman. Trying to change Islam like that is heresy, it's not something that can be reformed like Christianity.
Neither was Christianity, until someone did it anyway.
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Codician

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #583 on: October 23, 2016, 02:45:51 am »

Neither was Christianity, until someone did it anyway.

Huge differences between Islam and Christianity at the most basic level of theology.

Believing Islam can be reformed without it becoming not!Islam is fundamentally ignorant of the religion itself.
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - The dark hammer has fallen upon us!
« Reply #584 on: October 23, 2016, 03:13:56 am »

Perhaps it's less literal than you are interpreting. Allah or God may serve as a metonym for the religion.
ie. Islam has no gender.
I'm sure she holds some very strong opinions, and that she'd love to share them.

Their Imam would have some very strong opinions on how wrong they are on that.

I mean, the order of importance in creation is pretty much Allah > Man > Woman. Trying to change Islam like that is heresy, it's not something that can be reformed like Christianity.
Neither was Christianity, until someone did it anyway.
Christians are equally unreformed in that sense, since they keep calling their deity "Father." :P
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